Another Air France incident
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The layout is not that unusual, a lot of airports have done the same reconstruction. Nice, for example, and they should be familiar with that one.
And why have NCE invested in the world's largest flashing 'X', that you can see from 20K'
The markings are quite clearly those of a taxiway and not a runway which, since it was CAVOK, makes you wonder what was going on in that FD? Amazing!
That said, the failure to verify visual cues (runway intersection holding point signage etc) is rather worrying.
Potentially this type of incident could happen to any airline - as long as humans are involved there is a capacity for error. Fortunately in this case the error was picked up by ATC.
Of course we should continually seek ways to prevent future incidents such as lighting, signage etc and even better or more relevant training.
I would ask the question "Are you perfect?" - I suspect the honest answer would be "No" - then who are you to judge imperfection?
Am in no way making excuses for this crew. I am sure they are mortified by such an error.
I see this type of incident as a "system failure". Who are we to judge when we do not have any facts about what was going on at the time?
Rather than damning any airline or individuals we need to ask how we can prevent these incidents from ever occurring again?
Of course we should continually seek ways to prevent future incidents such as lighting, signage etc and even better or more relevant training.
I would ask the question "Are you perfect?" - I suspect the honest answer would be "No" - then who are you to judge imperfection?
Am in no way making excuses for this crew. I am sure they are mortified by such an error.
I see this type of incident as a "system failure". Who are we to judge when we do not have any facts about what was going on at the time?
Rather than damning any airline or individuals we need to ask how we can prevent these incidents from ever occurring again?
= the most sensible post IMO
Last edited by sooty3694; 19th Oct 2012 at 09:21.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess as someone who never makes mistakes, you never amaze yourself!
Sooty and Firefly are onto it, probably two minutes before the incident that crew could never have believed they could make such a mistake and would also have been "amazed".
Now they know the reality. Stay humble.
Now they know the reality. Stay humble.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've seen one of these incidents in action. A 737 lined up on a big fat taxiway with a 777 rumbling towards it from the far end. Fortunately, ATC noticed and cleared the 777 off the taxiway and pointed out the error to the shocked crew.
Well said Framer. The reality is perfectly competent pilots make these errors. Therefore, in my view, it can happen to any other competent pilot.
...probably two minutes before the incident that crew could never have believed they could make such a mistake and would also have been "amazed".
Now they know the reality. Stay humble.
Now they know the reality. Stay humble.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reality is perfectly competent pilots make these errors. Therefore, in my view, it can happen to any other competent pilot.
Last edited by Hotel Tango; 19th Oct 2012 at 10:02.
Well, if that's your standard of competency it's time for me to stop flying! In my book a COMPETENT pilot should not make such an INCOMPETENT mistake as this.
As this incident took place at 0356Z in mid-October that is surely before daylight, so the visual references are only going to be the lighting and illuminated signage, not any perception of concrete which "looks like" a runway.
Last edited by WHBM; 19th Oct 2012 at 10:49.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ***
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sooty
I assume you have not been there. I am sure many would disagree with your statement that it is not that unusual a layout. What has Nice got to do with it - comparing them is like comparing chalk and cheese? The taxiway in Nice is not TWICE the width of the runways, and neither is it between them.
What does Nice have got to do with it? Well, maybe you haven't been flying for too long, but that southern runway is new, and the parallel taxiway used to be a runway...
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: US
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
taking off in an easterly direction, sunrise at rougly 5:00Z, so just before sunrise, but looking in an easterly direction into haze (vis 4k...), possibly after a nightduty... From a taxyway that used to be a runway... swiss chees, holes...
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What does Nice have got to do with it? Well, maybe you haven't been flying for too long, but that southern runway is new, and the parallel taxiway used to be a runway...
The old northern runway at Nice is indeed a taxiway now, but it is not twice the width of one of the present runways, and neither is it situated between the two active runways.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, if that's your standard of competency it's time for me to stop flying! In my book a COMPETENT pilot should not make such an INCOMPETENT mistake as this.
Or perhaps you are suggesting that there are competent mistakes and incompetent mistakes - and that the only mistakes you make fall into the competent category?
If you don't believe that you have the potential to succumb to any of the psychological factors that effect human performance, then I would suggest you haven't learned much about flying yet.
Maybe an understandable incident in isolation ... but how long must PC dictate that the elephant in the room be ignored? - The conspicuously disproportionate number of serious incidents that occur amongst French operators, notably AF.
Ignore the data on PPruNe since we tend to make elephants out of ants behind our keyboards.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: SE Asia
Age: 39
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe time for s/e asian countries to 'ban' AF? ok that might be a bit harsh (at the moment) but lets be honest their safety record is not exactly great is it ?given a choice as a passenger i would certainly avoid them like the plague.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: phoenix, AZ, USA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Our airline has added a runway verification line to the checklist just before departure (below the line on the taxi check). We verify the runway listed in the FMC and verify the actual runway outside the window.
The reason for the addition was the number of runway specific RNAV fixes that we fly to on departure. There were some incidents of ATC switching departure runways after pushback and the crews not entering the new runway and new SID transition. But the runway check also serves to capture this type of error.
The reason for the addition was the number of runway specific RNAV fixes that we fly to on departure. There were some incidents of ATC switching departure runways after pushback and the crews not entering the new runway and new SID transition. But the runway check also serves to capture this type of error.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: France
Posts: 749
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Downin3greens:
One language? So at least speak it correctly, French, not Fench.
Those kind of mistakes are happening everywhere in the world by any kind of crew.
I admit I myself once took off from my friend' backyard... I was flying an Ultra Light though...
A reminder: a taxi briefing should be done before the take off briefing, hope it helps...
Fench says it all...one language in the cockpit
Those kind of mistakes are happening everywhere in the world by any kind of crew.
I admit I myself once took off from my friend' backyard... I was flying an Ultra Light though...
A reminder: a taxi briefing should be done before the take off briefing, hope it helps...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Joe: but how long must PC dictate that the elephant in the room be ignored? - The conspicuously disproportionate number of serious incidents that occur amongst French operators, notably AF.
Incidents with non-AF? Which ones? Please explain!
Accidents and incidents with AF? Plenty :, Concorde in 2000, Toronto A340 (aircraft destroyed), Rio-Paris A330 in 2009 228 fatalities
Incidents with non-AF? Which ones? Please explain!
Accidents and incidents with AF? Plenty :, Concorde in 2000, Toronto A340 (aircraft destroyed), Rio-Paris A330 in 2009 228 fatalities