Another plane down in Nepal
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I flew the very same route back in November 2010. The weight limit (although I was on Tara Air) was 15kg 'hold' baggage which meant kit bags effectively, and your rucksack. Most of our groups kitbags were right on the weight limit. Some rucksacks were heavier than others and although both items were weighed there was no set limit for the rucksack which was effectively your hand luggage. There is much trepidation on these flights about flying into Lukla - so sad that these trekkers and crew never got there.
Incidentally the 15kg kitbags were carried by Nepalese portes once trekking (3 each in a whicker basket on their backs!!) and your rucksack was yours to carry basically as a daypack.
Incidentally the 15kg kitbags were carried by Nepalese portes once trekking (3 each in a whicker basket on their backs!!) and your rucksack was yours to carry basically as a daypack.
Last edited by lindslow; 1st Oct 2012 at 10:37.
Before getting too involved in the weight issue, keep in mind that the flight Kathmandu to Lukla is only about a 150nm round-trip (depends on whether one flies direct over the ridges or along the foothills and then up the valley). Given the Do228's range of 700 nm, there was a lot of leeway to trade fuel load for payload even with a reserve and tankering fuel. (CG is another question, of course).
Nominal payload max. for the 228 is 5100 lbs, or 268 lbs per pax. (less crew weights).
So a big pile of baggage doesn't necessarily mean the aircraft was actually over gross. We'll need to know the fuel load as well.
Nominal payload max. for the 228 is 5100 lbs, or 268 lbs per pax. (less crew weights).
So a big pile of baggage doesn't necessarily mean the aircraft was actually over gross. We'll need to know the fuel load as well.
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Something new ...
Crash: Sita D228 at Kathmandu on Sep 28th 2012, bird strike
Crash: Sita D228 at Kathmandu on Sep 28th 2012, bird strike
CAA Nepal and Airline Operators Association Nepal reported on Sep 30th based on preliminary investigation results, that the bird collided with the right hand engine at about 50 feet above ground (about 4440 feet MSL) causing some part to separate from the engine, the part impacted the vertical tail and disabled the rudder. This made the aircraft uncontrollable. Tower noticed the aircraft began a tight turn at that point.
Last edited by jcjeant; 2nd Oct 2012 at 02:13.
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AAIB - overseas field investigations
AAIB offer to assist in overseas field investigations conducted by other States when a) Brits killed and b) that local State Investigation welcomes their assistance.
AAIB only have 8 full time and 1 part time ops investigators these days.
DNA assistance from the UK Gov was offered, and apparently refused.
However, the aviation insurers of Sita Air will have hired Kenyons or Blakes to conduct post accident DNA identification and repatriation of remains.
AAIB only have 8 full time and 1 part time ops investigators these days.
DNA assistance from the UK Gov was offered, and apparently refused.
However, the aviation insurers of Sita Air will have hired Kenyons or Blakes to conduct post accident DNA identification and repatriation of remains.
If the Sita Air was inded a DO-228 202, you do not get 268lbs per passenger, far from it !! Max Zero fuel is 12,324lbs Empty = 8,243lbs (Approximate depending on specific aircraft) so the max payload (including the 2 crews for this computation) is = 4,081lbs. Deduct the crew @ 175lbs each (Shoes clothing computers, snacks etc will amount for probably 10lbs each) = 350lbs so now we have a max passenger payload of 3,731lbs if the plane was carrying 17 passengers + 2 crew then the max allowable weight per passenger would be approximately 3,731 / 17 = 219lbs.
Average passenger weight 185lbs so average maximum allowable luggage weight per passenger is : 34lbs.
At max Load the Do-228 can take 1,411lbs of fuel translating to about 2.4Hr or 450 to 500nm range (including reserves = absolute max range). To that computation you have to factor in the density altitude (and of course CG), so it seems that this type of operation do not allow for a great safety margin. Can someone enlighten us as to the average weight of luggage the trekkers carry ? Of course my computation will not accurately match this case but I feel that it is very close. You can download the EASA TCDS for the Do-228 series aircraft using the following URL link
https://www.easa.europa.eu/certifica...3-15122010.pdf
Average passenger weight 185lbs so average maximum allowable luggage weight per passenger is : 34lbs.
At max Load the Do-228 can take 1,411lbs of fuel translating to about 2.4Hr or 450 to 500nm range (including reserves = absolute max range). To that computation you have to factor in the density altitude (and of course CG), so it seems that this type of operation do not allow for a great safety margin. Can someone enlighten us as to the average weight of luggage the trekkers carry ? Of course my computation will not accurately match this case but I feel that it is very close. You can download the EASA TCDS for the Do-228 series aircraft using the following URL link
https://www.easa.europa.eu/certifica...3-15122010.pdf
Last edited by Melax; 4th Oct 2012 at 21:59.
OK but do the trekkers perhaps carry more and leave some stuff at the base camp and carry some themselves ? I bet that they have more than 15KG at the beginning
of the trip. The other question I have is: do they add local cargo to the flights ?
of the trip. The other question I have is: do they add local cargo to the flights ?
Last edited by Melax; 4th Oct 2012 at 21:56.
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Having trekked in that region 3 times:
Typical trekker baggage is about 12-15 kg per person plus a day-pack weighing 5 to 10 kg. These weights are critical because the porter cannot carry more combined weight (they carry for more than one person and the weighing is quite strict), you cannot carry more during the day and there is no "base camp" to leave stuff in. Persons trekking individually without a porter will have even less combined while big organized groups may reach the upper limit of 15kg.
Where you may have more baggage is in the case of mountaineering expeditions, where tons of equipment may be moved. This is usually done by cargo helicopter as it would simply not be too economical to carry as overweight. However, a smaller expedition to a minor peak could probably be coming in at this time and could conceivably have extra equipment to be ferried over in passenger flights.
Local "cargo" goes up by foot from the trailhead.
Typical trekker baggage is about 12-15 kg per person plus a day-pack weighing 5 to 10 kg. These weights are critical because the porter cannot carry more combined weight (they carry for more than one person and the weighing is quite strict), you cannot carry more during the day and there is no "base camp" to leave stuff in. Persons trekking individually without a porter will have even less combined while big organized groups may reach the upper limit of 15kg.
Where you may have more baggage is in the case of mountaineering expeditions, where tons of equipment may be moved. This is usually done by cargo helicopter as it would simply not be too economical to carry as overweight. However, a smaller expedition to a minor peak could probably be coming in at this time and could conceivably have extra equipment to be ferried over in passenger flights.
Local "cargo" goes up by foot from the trailhead.
Last edited by ads1001; 5th Oct 2012 at 09:48.
What do you mean local cargo is carried by foot ?? 
I'm referring to cargo shipments between the 2 airports (Khatmandu-Lukhla) Sita air carries tons of it, just look at the youtube videos.I'm sure that there is much more involved that contributed to this event I found these videos after just a 2s search so I'm sure you can find more......
I'm referring to cargo shipments between the 2 airports (Khatmandu-Lukhla) Sita air carries tons of it, just look at the youtube videos.I'm sure that there is much more involved that contributed to this event I found these videos after just a 2s search so I'm sure you can find more......
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The numerous accidents in Nepal begs another question. what are the training standards for pilots? Having first hand experience of flying in Nepal with Nepalese captains is major part of the problems are training , knowledge and aptitude. I am sorry if offended anyone (especially if they are local ) but that is the bitter fact. Challenged with some serious terrain and lack of training standards these accidents will continue to happen. ICAO has to step in because the local authorities are clueless, most them have never been inside the cockpit .
In the in the year i was there 2000-2001 , there were 8 crashes.
e.g of training standards :My chief pilot of my airline lost 500ft + on steep turns on his check ride. No concept what a bleeds off takeoff is . Enter the holding patten at IAF for VOR 02 . turns to right instead of left and loses 300ft.
Most of locals go abroad for training+sims but never do their checkrides . They come back to nepal , get a examiner from anywhere and get cleared .
Fly the Local carriers at your own risk !
if this is situation on the flight deck thing what happening with Engg , Load and trim etal
In the in the year i was there 2000-2001 , there were 8 crashes.
e.g of training standards :My chief pilot of my airline lost 500ft + on steep turns on his check ride. No concept what a bleeds off takeoff is . Enter the holding patten at IAF for VOR 02 . turns to right instead of left and loses 300ft.
Most of locals go abroad for training+sims but never do their checkrides . They come back to nepal , get a examiner from anywhere and get cleared .
Fly the Local carriers at your own risk !
if this is situation on the flight deck thing what happening with Engg , Load and trim etal
Max Zero fuel is 12,324lbs Empty = 8,243lbs (Approximate depending on specific aircraft) so the max payload (including the 2 crews for this computation) is = 4,081lbs.
I'd agree that on a short flight requiring substantially less than full fuel, but with a large payload, one should usually hit the MZFW limit before reaching MTOW.
May be Jet_737ng can shed some light on how often these planes are refueled ? and what are the cargo loading procedures if any ?? 2 R/T Kathmandu~Lukla is pretty much max range for the 228 at max legal T/O weight with IFR Reserves (~45mins). it looks like they carry a lot of cargo and just toss the stuff inside without any regard for CG and weight. (Maybe I'm wrong but.....)
Last edited by Melax; 9th Oct 2012 at 16:29.
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Refuelling was done adhoc. If the tank looked it needed fuel you put fuel . if the destination had no refuelling you filled her up. i think lukla has no refuelling facilities so am assuming tanks would be full up.... At that time there was no load and trim . We in a Beech 1900c did about 12-14 landings daily. We did not fly to lukla only the Twin otter and Do 228 can manage it into there.
There was no preflight medical test for alcohol for crews no FDTL no seventh day.
.
I was once told by local captain i was too paranoid about terrain .. and not be worried as all mountains in the KTM valley already had one crash ( CFIT) already .. so every mountains quota was over
by the way he was quite serious.
Not making this up : I have taken off towards a mountain at pokhara going south and through out my climb saw radio altitude of 900 ft to 1150 ft climbing at Vx bleeds off until we hopped over the mountain just because i had the nerve to tell my capt it was not safe to do that!
Its time regulatory bodies around the world step in to educate, improve standards etc. This is very poor country . The small aircraft for some villages are at times an ambulance, good carrier, fuel transporter, postman and a pharmacy.
By the way some of the chopper pilots there have done so phenomenal feats of rescuing hikers at way above their eqpt service ceiling.
p.s There is a very thin line between courage and stupidity.
There was no preflight medical test for alcohol for crews no FDTL no seventh day.
.I was once told by local captain i was too paranoid about terrain .. and not be worried as all mountains in the KTM valley already had one crash ( CFIT) already .. so every mountains quota was over
by the way he was quite serious.Not making this up : I have taken off towards a mountain at pokhara going south and through out my climb saw radio altitude of 900 ft to 1150 ft climbing at Vx bleeds off until we hopped over the mountain just because i had the nerve to tell my capt it was not safe to do that!
Its time regulatory bodies around the world step in to educate, improve standards etc. This is very poor country . The small aircraft for some villages are at times an ambulance, good carrier, fuel transporter, postman and a pharmacy.
By the way some of the chopper pilots there have done so phenomenal feats of rescuing hikers at way above their eqpt service ceiling.
p.s There is a very thin line between courage and stupidity.
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Better regulation and investment in Nepal
The European Commission has been in discussions since February with the Nepalese CAA about the state of air safety in Nepal. Their big stick is the EU blacklist, which travellers are becoming more aware of on this Continent. The blacklist tends to have a self fulfilling prophecy about it too. Hopefully there is some investment carrot too, as things certainly need to start changing. The same approach has been working with Indonesia since 2008.
Cold comfort for the passengers and crew of Sita Air though.
Cold comfort for the passengers and crew of Sita Air though.
Last edited by Swiss Cheese; 10th Oct 2012 at 19:54. Reason: typo
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Anyone able to provide a link to the official report? Searched to no avail. From Aviation International News
The recent report by Nepal’s Accident Investigation Commission on the crash of a Sita-Air Dornier Do-228 on September 28 last year at Kathmandu’s Tribhuvan International Airport (VNKT) cited a significant loss of power during the takeoff run as the first link in that accident’s chain of events. The aircraft stalled and crashed shortly after takeoff, killing all 19 people aboard. The twin turboprop never climbed more than 100 feet above the runway after liftoff and quickly drifted left of the runway centerline, which led investigators to assume the left engine had failed. Despite the loss of power before V1, the crew did not attempt to stop the aircraft on the runway remaining. Major portions of the Dornier were destroyed in a post-crash fire, hampering some elements of the investigation. Although the commission was unable to determine precisely the cause of the power loss, it did initially consider a bird strike. Post-crash investigations did uncover some engine anomalies that may have been related to the power loss. The aircraft’s fuel flows were found to be incorrectly set to produce idle thrust at 90-percent rpm rather than the required 96 percent. The fact that the aircraft drifted left of the runway after liftoff removed the option of landing the aircraft on the runway remaining. Unconfirmed reports also claimed the aircraft’s poor performance may have been related to an overloaded condition.
Champagne anyone...?
What a peculiarly inappropriate post.
Anyway, the accident report makes for sobering reading. As a professional pilot, having pax'd on that route myself it sent something of a shiver down my spine...
Anyway, the accident report makes for sobering reading. As a professional pilot, having pax'd on that route myself it sent something of a shiver down my spine...
