kai tak remembered ...
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kai tak remembered ...
Captains,
I've heard that in the kai tak days, there were basically two ways of flying the approach :
-Cathay and a few others, when weather allowed it, left Localizer to parallel it to the left, started the turn after MM, made a steeper turn and got longer finals which allowed them to adjust a crab for Xwinds.
-Lufthansa and most airlines remained on LOC until MM, started a shallower turn and straightened the aircraft just as they reached the thresold, hence shorter finals.
-When did Cathay pilots left LOC ? at OM ? after ? before ?
-How much to the left could they go ?
In the case of a visual NDB13 approach, what was the procedure once you reached SC ? Did you follow approach lights or get on left of them ?
Cheers
BBB
I've heard that in the kai tak days, there were basically two ways of flying the approach :
-Cathay and a few others, when weather allowed it, left Localizer to parallel it to the left, started the turn after MM, made a steeper turn and got longer finals which allowed them to adjust a crab for Xwinds.
-Lufthansa and most airlines remained on LOC until MM, started a shallower turn and straightened the aircraft just as they reached the thresold, hence shorter finals.
-When did Cathay pilots left LOC ? at OM ? after ? before ?
-How much to the left could they go ?
In the case of a visual NDB13 approach, what was the procedure once you reached SC ? Did you follow approach lights or get on left of them ?
Cheers
BBB
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True that the CX drivers always keep on the left side of the LOC before the right turn. Some frequent visitors to Kai Tak also flew it this way, e.g. Thai, China Airlines, Philipines etc.
Most foreign airlines, particularly United, prefer to stayed on the LOC all the way down before making the final right turn.
Alitalia - they normally stayed on the LOC but always started the right turn a bit too early making their MD-11 on the right side of RWY 13, a left turn to adjust to line up the runway is required at 100 feet!!
Regarding the NDB approach, I guess you need to fly the aircraft visually after SC, and assuming that there is no G/S aid.
Hope this help!!
Most foreign airlines, particularly United, prefer to stayed on the LOC all the way down before making the final right turn.
Alitalia - they normally stayed on the LOC but always started the right turn a bit too early making their MD-11 on the right side of RWY 13, a left turn to adjust to line up the runway is required at 100 feet!!
Regarding the NDB approach, I guess you need to fly the aircraft visually after SC, and assuming that there is no G/S aid.
Hope this help!!
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Watching proceedings from either the ledge under the checkerboard or from the flats, my conclusions are.
The Cathay method made the best landings, Alitalia and Lufthansa were allways worth watching to see what bit of the airframe might touch the ground first.
The Cathay method made the best landings, Alitalia and Lufthansa were allways worth watching to see what bit of the airframe might touch the ground first.
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Sorry IGS,
But not ALL CX drivers went left of the LLZ on the IGS. Some of us preferred to stay on it and fly 'the lights'. We used the 'step left' option when ATC needed an extra few seconds to get someone clear of the runway or airborne.
Also, in times of poor wx, going left was not an option as in certain wind conditions you could get a windshear warning. Additionally, visibility became a factor in heavy rain. Hence the reason for staying on the lights.
But not ALL CX drivers went left of the LLZ on the IGS. Some of us preferred to stay on it and fly 'the lights'. We used the 'step left' option when ATC needed an extra few seconds to get someone clear of the runway or airborne.
Also, in times of poor wx, going left was not an option as in certain wind conditions you could get a windshear warning. Additionally, visibility became a factor in heavy rain. Hence the reason for staying on the lights.
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My advice for what it is worth is to stay on the Igs,they cant have you for that,know and plan on always going around,know your target airspeed.
At minima,go visual,see the threshold continuously, if not go around.
Keep the leadin lights between your knees, get the other guy to call continuously your rate of descent and indicated airspeed, and every 10 feet from 100 RA downwards. Know exactly were the wipers and rain repellent controls are, and ensure you can reach them if required, if raining turn em on early as they might not work or fly off,at a low alltitude is not the best time to find this out.
Ensure you arive with plenty of hold fuel and enough to divert to several alternates if HKK closes. "Plenty" will vary from 5mins to an extra 2hours dependant upon if you are sitting in an office or overhead HKK in the rain.
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We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?
At minima,go visual,see the threshold continuously, if not go around.
Keep the leadin lights between your knees, get the other guy to call continuously your rate of descent and indicated airspeed, and every 10 feet from 100 RA downwards. Know exactly were the wipers and rain repellent controls are, and ensure you can reach them if required, if raining turn em on early as they might not work or fly off,at a low alltitude is not the best time to find this out.
Ensure you arive with plenty of hold fuel and enough to divert to several alternates if HKK closes. "Plenty" will vary from 5mins to an extra 2hours dependant upon if you are sitting in an office or overhead HKK in the rain.
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We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?
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A fellow PPRuNer, John MacCalman, produced an excellent radio documentary on Kai Tak, winning a Sony Radio Award if I remember rightly.
You can listen to it here, though I have it on tape and I'm sure either John or I can get copies to anyone who wants a listen. Very well produced.
http://www.airlinepilots.com/Interview/KaiTak.htm
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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You can listen to it here, though I have it on tape and I'm sure either John or I can get copies to anyone who wants a listen. Very well produced.
http://www.airlinepilots.com/Interview/KaiTak.htm
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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BBB -
Rather a different subject, but you might find interest in the CS-985 accounts at -
www.webpak.net/~skydream
Rather a different subject, but you might find interest in the CS-985 accounts at -
www.webpak.net/~skydream
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There is a duplicate post in Questions, so this thread is now closed.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/001171.html
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/001171.html
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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
[email protected]
