Helios Crash
Common sense finally prevails as far as the engineer is concerned! For chief pilots and executives however the message is clear, the buck for corporate responsibility stops with you. We are quick to criticize them. But as this case shows their positions are not without risk.
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Athens decision
It is great news that Alan was found Not Guilty, but then he wasn't guilty anyway was he.
It was very heartening for him to have been given the overwhelming support of his fellow licensed engineers both in this forum and elsewhere. Even pilots joined in to wish him well!
The CEO, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot are found Guilty but also did nothing wrong. The big difference is that they got little or no support from fellow management types who kept their corporate heads below the parapet.
But would we expect anything else
It was very heartening for him to have been given the overwhelming support of his fellow licensed engineers both in this forum and elsewhere. Even pilots joined in to wish him well!
The CEO, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot are found Guilty but also did nothing wrong. The big difference is that they got little or no support from fellow management types who kept their corporate heads below the parapet.
But would we expect anything else
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Greek justice ?
"It would appear justice does prevail after all, even in Greece. It just takes a long long long time."
You are having a laugh aren't you ?
Helios convictions upheld in Greece - Cyprus Mail
Bulgaria: Greek Appeals Court Upholds Bulgarian Pilot Guilty Verdict - Novinite.com - Sofia News Agency
You are having a laugh aren't you ?
Helios convictions upheld in Greece - Cyprus Mail
Bulgaria: Greek Appeals Court Upholds Bulgarian Pilot Guilty Verdict - Novinite.com - Sofia News Agency
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Helios - Farce - Cover up
No it's not great news. You are all professional pilots where on earth is the uproar in the pilot community. 2 of the 4 chaps charged are pilots!!!
The air accident report used in the Greek trial was FALSE. The report was initiated by the air accident investigator Mr Tsolaskis AAIASB and it was written by 2 world leading air accident investigators - Caj Frostell and Ron Schleede. They based the report on Tsolakis information and data.
Physical evidence provided by the Canadians was brought forward confirming that the aircraft sustained a Catastrophic pressurisation failure and therefore the pilots would not of regained control.
Ron and Caj RETRACTED their report agreeing with the infallible Canadians findings and demanded that the case be reopened as the report was FALSE. The Greek rejected! NTSB turned the other way and Boeing after paying the ''Hush'' money to the relatives have not said a word..
The Greeks continue to use the Initial report!!!!!
Now where the hell is the justice! This is detrimental to Air safety. ICAO is a farse and this is in direct breech of Annex 13. Allowing Boeing to continue to cover up the real reason why that aircraft went down. For a kangaroo court who has no clue on the technicalities in this case to pass verdict.
You are all pilots entrusting your lives in such organisations. Good luck in Greek airspace
The air accident report used in the Greek trial was FALSE. The report was initiated by the air accident investigator Mr Tsolaskis AAIASB and it was written by 2 world leading air accident investigators - Caj Frostell and Ron Schleede. They based the report on Tsolakis information and data.
Physical evidence provided by the Canadians was brought forward confirming that the aircraft sustained a Catastrophic pressurisation failure and therefore the pilots would not of regained control.
Ron and Caj RETRACTED their report agreeing with the infallible Canadians findings and demanded that the case be reopened as the report was FALSE. The Greek rejected! NTSB turned the other way and Boeing after paying the ''Hush'' money to the relatives have not said a word..
The Greeks continue to use the Initial report!!!!!
Now where the hell is the justice! This is detrimental to Air safety. ICAO is a farse and this is in direct breech of Annex 13. Allowing Boeing to continue to cover up the real reason why that aircraft went down. For a kangaroo court who has no clue on the technicalities in this case to pass verdict.
You are all pilots entrusting your lives in such organisations. Good luck in Greek airspace
Mistrust in Management
Rebeccask
Firstly may I state that I believe the findings of the Greek courts are outrageous.
I know one of the accused personally and be assured I find this outcome a complete travesty of justice.
However I do find this statement of yours odd:
I have personally experienced a complete pressurisation failure in a B737 (as well as partial failures in B747's).
In the B737 failure at cruise altitude we did not regain control of the pressurisation but took the appropriate steps to ensure the safety of the pax , crew and aircraft. We donned oxygen masks, attempted to identify and fix the problem, and when we were unable executed an emergency decent.
Whilst I would never suggest that my S/F/O and I carried out the 'perfect' response to the situation we were presented with, I do believe that the basic actions were in general compliance with SOP's at the time.
Evidence would suggest that the actions of the crew of the ill fated aircraft were not in general compliance with SOP's at the time.
To put it in very blunt terms:
The Pilots may not have been able to control this 'catasprophic' pressurisation failure, but they were qualified and therefore should have been able to execute control of the aircraft subsequently to a safe landing. It would seem that they failed to do this.
May I also say that a pressurisation failure should never be decribed as catastrophic. Events leading up to a pressurisation failure could be 'catastrophic'
These events could be things such as a bomb which brought down Pan Am over Lockerbie. In this case the bomb led to a pressurisation failure (to say the least!), and the rest is very unpleasant history.
Pressurisation failures are not that common (one for me in 37 years), but do occur. Most result in a normal landing with no significant injuries.
I know one of the accused personally and be assured I find this outcome a complete travesty of justice.
However I do find this statement of yours odd:
Physical evidence provided by the Canadians was brought forward confirming that the aircraft sustained a Catastrophic pressurisation failure and therefore the pilots would not of regained control.
In the B737 failure at cruise altitude we did not regain control of the pressurisation but took the appropriate steps to ensure the safety of the pax , crew and aircraft. We donned oxygen masks, attempted to identify and fix the problem, and when we were unable executed an emergency decent.
Whilst I would never suggest that my S/F/O and I carried out the 'perfect' response to the situation we were presented with, I do believe that the basic actions were in general compliance with SOP's at the time.
Evidence would suggest that the actions of the crew of the ill fated aircraft were not in general compliance with SOP's at the time.
To put it in very blunt terms:
The Pilots may not have been able to control this 'catasprophic' pressurisation failure, but they were qualified and therefore should have been able to execute control of the aircraft subsequently to a safe landing. It would seem that they failed to do this.
May I also say that a pressurisation failure should never be decribed as catastrophic. Events leading up to a pressurisation failure could be 'catastrophic'
These events could be things such as a bomb which brought down Pan Am over Lockerbie. In this case the bomb led to a pressurisation failure (to say the least!), and the rest is very unpleasant history.
Pressurisation failures are not that common (one for me in 37 years), but do occur. Most result in a normal landing with no significant injuries.
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As I recall maintenance was trouble shooting an air leak in one of the doors the night before and left the pressurization in manual open. The pilots missed seeing it and ignored the cabin altitude warning and continued flying on autopilot until fuel starvation in a holding pattern at altitude at Athens. Fighter jets went up to assist them but both pilots were passed out. It probably has been posted before in the hundreds of posts.
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Why do people still continue with the accusations that the switch was left in manual. It was proven that the switch was in auto. The engineers thread has a couple of posts by asheng who attended the trial as a professional witness. It's quite interesting reading and should make everyone fearful of the Greek justice system.
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Please do not drift away from the topic!
Dear All,
Let me put one thing clear:
This thread is supposed to be about the court case, do not go into the pressurization issue again (discussed at length here and elsewhere).
The essence is that the defendants were tried and sentenced based on:
- a mistaken report
- a misrepresentation of facts
- a misinterpreted responsibility
The court in Athens should have made its own investigation, like the one in Cyprus did (although also based on a wrong hypothesis drawn from the Greek investigation report).
Capt. Stoimenov and the other 2 defendants should have never been brought to court, more so - for manslaughter.
Finally, as Greece in general and the Greek Judiciary are bankrupt, the judge replaced the sentence that he upheld with a "ransom" of 76650 EUR. The money had to be deposited in 7 days - by 14/02/2013.
Let me put one thing clear:
This thread is supposed to be about the court case, do not go into the pressurization issue again (discussed at length here and elsewhere).
The essence is that the defendants were tried and sentenced based on:
- a mistaken report
- a misrepresentation of facts
- a misinterpreted responsibility
The court in Athens should have made its own investigation, like the one in Cyprus did (although also based on a wrong hypothesis drawn from the Greek investigation report).
Capt. Stoimenov and the other 2 defendants should have never been brought to court, more so - for manslaughter.
Finally, as Greece in general and the Greek Judiciary are bankrupt, the judge replaced the sentence that he upheld with a "ransom" of 76650 EUR. The money had to be deposited in 7 days - by 14/02/2013.
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So this is Bad Management
The management of Helios Airways were found guilty; check out your own favourite airline against this.
The AAIASB Report found that the Flight and Cabin crew were medically fit, well rested and qualified (OED - trained and competent) to conduct the flight.
The aircraft had a current C of A and carried no defects.
Safety oversight was by UK CAA
No significant deficiencies were noted in audits and the UK CAA Inspector recommended continuance of the Helios Airways AOC on 5 June 2005.
It doesn't get much better than that, so what are they guilty of?
The AAIASB Report found that the Flight and Cabin crew were medically fit, well rested and qualified (OED - trained and competent) to conduct the flight.
The aircraft had a current C of A and carried no defects.
Safety oversight was by UK CAA
No significant deficiencies were noted in audits and the UK CAA Inspector recommended continuance of the Helios Airways AOC on 5 June 2005.
It doesn't get much better than that, so what are they guilty of?
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Thanks for the link,sj. Last time I followed up on this was a couple years ago.
I picked up a 737 about 30 years ago and flew it all afternoon into the evening. The next morning I got the same plane and on first flight of day checks had no oxygen flow. Found the oxygen bottle replaced the day before before we got it had not been turned on so we were reading trapped pressure in the line.
Interesting about their mike selectors being in mask position and they passed out. That is probably what would have happened in our case.
I picked up a 737 about 30 years ago and flew it all afternoon into the evening. The next morning I got the same plane and on first flight of day checks had no oxygen flow. Found the oxygen bottle replaced the day before before we got it had not been turned on so we were reading trapped pressure in the line.
Interesting about their mike selectors being in mask position and they passed out. That is probably what would have happened in our case.
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Our opspecs requiring quick turn arounds only required flow checks on oxygen on initial flights on first flight of the day. We flew the whole day with no crew oxygen and didn't know it. The pressure was right but the bottle was turned off. If we had depressurized we would have had no oxygen. I don't know what their opspecs were but putting people in jail is not right. Mistakes were made but they put the wrong people in jail. Hopefully they will rectify this. It is embarassing to think Greece can not understand this.
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Oxygen
Interesting exchange re O2. The audio selectors were found by the Boeing adviser to NTSB - both undamaged by the impact, not even dusty, and both at MASK.
The Flight Deck valve was about half open. I was taught to fully open it and then turn it back a 1/4 turn (Gorilla avoidance!); am I right in thinking that the flow is quite severely restricted if the valve is only partially open?
Also interesting that the pilot's masks were never found but the supernummary ones were easily located in the flight deck area and in reasonable condition.
The Flight Deck valve was about half open. I was taught to fully open it and then turn it back a 1/4 turn (Gorilla avoidance!); am I right in thinking that the flow is quite severely restricted if the valve is only partially open?
Also interesting that the pilot's masks were never found but the supernummary ones were easily located in the flight deck area and in reasonable condition.
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The management of Helios Airways were found guilty; check out your own favourite airline against this.
The AAIASB Report found that the Flight and Cabin crew were medically fit, well rested and qualified (OED - trained and competent) to conduct the flight.
The aircraft had a current C of A and carried no defects.
Safety oversight was by UK CAA
No significant deficiencies were noted in audits and the UK CAA Inspector recommended continuance of the Helios Airways AOC on 5 June 2005.
It doesn't get much better than that, so what are they guilty of?
The AAIASB Report found that the Flight and Cabin crew were medically fit, well rested and qualified (OED - trained and competent) to conduct the flight.
The aircraft had a current C of A and carried no defects.
Safety oversight was by UK CAA
No significant deficiencies were noted in audits and the UK CAA Inspector recommended continuance of the Helios Airways AOC on 5 June 2005.
It doesn't get much better than that, so what are they guilty of?
a criminal sentence and corporate negligence, *PAYDAY* !
unfortunately situations like this are nothing to do with safety, responsibility or justice it is about squeaking money out of a policy..
Greece and as Cyprus are both fairly small, you can bet that lawyers and judges are to some degree related or interconnected, heck i'm related to about a third of cyprus.. so lawyers need to get paid, they sure as s**t dont work pro-bono all the time so each settlement will have a percentage going for legal fees, get a criminal conviction and that new house, swimming pool or g-wagen is paid for.
outcomes like this actually set flight safety backwards as well as industry progression and development, that is the travesty following the tragedy!
Actually I think there are some aspects of this tragic case that airline management should have a think about. The captain was a well known 'character' over here, who appears to have changed jobs a lot (so recruitment and supervision may be an issue). Whilst certain elements of the accident will never be known for sure, there were reports of a very poor working atmosphere on the flight deck. Nobody comes out of this particularly well, so suggesting everything was fine and this is just a money grabbing exercise is a little simplistic.
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I didn't know the oxygen bottle was not fully on, just partially opened. Rarely do both pilots check flow at the same time so a partially open oxygen bottle wouldn't be detected. Was it even half way open? They probably don't know. All we know is they selected their com to mask so must have had masks on.
They lost consciousness so must have not had oxygen sufficient for both pilots. They must. Have considered this in the investigation.
They lost consciousness so must have not had oxygen sufficient for both pilots. They must. Have considered this in the investigation.
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If true, the mechanic who didn't properly open the valve would be the only person at fault. Flying a lot of corporate jets long ago I knew you opened it all the way and backed it up a touch so it wouldn't jam at the wide open position. You never leave it only partially open. I'm just a pilot and know that.