Utair ATR 72 Crash in Siberia

[JammedStab]

Originally Posted by Clandestino

Nice advice on takeoff with contaminated wings you have there. In order to clear-up the applicability of it, pray tell us how does one:

1. fail to notice wings need de-icing during walkaround?
2. fail to notice icing conditions during ground ops that necessitate use of anti-icing?
3. suddenly realize that wings are contaminated between Vr and acceleration altitude so postpones flap retraction, or in more extreme case; between V1 and Vlof so gathers speed on runway or in ground effect?

1. According to the report, video evidence showed that there was a very minimal walkaround done by the captain. Some mention was made of briefly hanging around one of the engines and not much else. Therefore, a proper walkaround was not performed.

2. The report doesn't give much evidence about your question except to go on endlessly about poor English comprehension. This meant that information about the hazards of wing contamination that were published in English could not be understood. Of course, it seems highly unlikely that they were not aware of the warnings that all pilots have received on subject. So more likely is that the advice from the engineer that they would not need de-icing gave them enough of an excuse to be able to justify their decision if ever questioned about it in the future.

3. I suppose only in the unlikely case that one meant to get a de-ice and somehow forgot to do so. In the tens of millions of flights that have occurred(or is it hundreds), I am sure it has happened at least once. After years of reading accident reports, I have come to the conclusion that if it is possible to happen in aviation, it has happened.

Anyways, if someone did forget to stop at the de-ice bay and then suddenly remembered at a critical time during takeoff(however unlikely) or was a bit worried about how well their fluid was holding up or perhaps a plane felt sluggish after takeoff despite being within a holdover time, it might be prudent to not fly a normal profile. Perhaps a delay in retracting flaps.

[henra]

Originally Posted by JammedStab

3. I suppose only in the unlikely case that one meant to get a de-ice and somehow forgot to do so. In the tens of millions of flights that have occurred(or is it hundreds),

Exactly. If they didn't deem de-icing necessary in the first place using normal speeds seems only consequential...
These guys didn't seem to have worried much about the possible existance (not a single word about it - OK they activated the boots but that might have been Routine for them) of ice and its effect on the aircraft.
Given the history of ice sensitivity of TPs in general and especially ATRs one has to wonder a bit why it didn't dawn on them that something bad could happen.

[Johno8]

Yeah they did think something bad could happen...but only after they lost control.

[5 APUs captain]

Just few facts:

1. Airplane has arrived well before the snowfall (actually wet snow).
2. They've got up after the snowfall.
3. According their company SOPs - before departure from company base the technician is responsible for the contaminant check and de-icing.
4. That was a captain's birthday ...... Rush...

[JammedStab]

On page 50 of the report....wet snow and rain upon arrival with temperature of zero.

[Naali]

To understand these procedures,one must know where they came from. Ground engineer decides if the aircraft is fit to fly,Radio operator handles the comms,Navigator does the maths. Pilot flies. Somewhere else,it is estimated that it takes three generations to change a way of common thinking. At best.

[Sunamer]

"Somewhere else,it is estimated that it takes three generations to change a way of common thinking."

Common thinking arises from the way new people are raised/taught.
So, it might take less, given that there is a need for new safety culture.
The need that is felt by instructors as well as airlines personnel(responsible for safety) including top level managers.

It is saddening that so much has been learnt in aviation about safety, yet, while reading what some russian pilots on various forums have to say about that "damn western airmanship culture that no one needs", I am left to wonder, what century they are flying in ...

[rostal]

Guys, probably I'm getting something wrong but how could they have Total Flight Time only about 50hrs more than experience on ATR. Is the TT counted after obtaining CPL or what?
Cheers

[Sunamer]

From the final MAK report

Cpt:
Total time: 2602
ATR42/72 type hrs: 2522
ATR42/72(as CPT) hrs: 288 (ATR42 - 53 hrs, ATR72 - 235 hrs )

School time - 80 hrs. such a nice and round number...

how could they have Total Flight Time only about 50hrs more than experience on ATR

Schools struggle to get planes in the air due to the lack of funds. So, most of the time, by the time students get their CPLs, they are only in 50-70 hrs logged range. Depending on a school, some students can get slightly higher numbers, but not by much.

In fact, the real number might be even less - no money in the school - they fly 30-40 hrs, the rest is just ....ehh..."added" to make at least 50-70 hr number in the logbook).