China Eastern takes off without permission in apparent misunderstanding

[PacWest]

"( Canadians slightly better than their southern neighbours). I constantly tell my local HK Chinese trainees, to speak to these airlines as if you are talking to a 5 year old and remember that they are really not "native English" speakers!!!"

By the 'native' english you are referring to the British 'english' I presume. Yeah, right. Obviously it hasn't come to your attention that the Canadians and Americans find it almost impossible to understand just what the hell some Brits are saying. Matter of fact Canadians and Americans on the whole speak a more grammatically correct english than you 'native' Brits do, i.e., when have you ever heard a Canadian/American say: "I was sat at the table" instead of, "I was sitting at the table" or, "I was stood at the very back .." rather than, " I was standing at the very back.."?

Not to mention the impossibility of figuring out various accents -- Geordie for instance ... beats our back country rednecks by a country mile. So, when next you tell your chinese students about those 5 year olds from the two countries the same chinese give their eye teeth to immigrate to btw and to attend our schools, colleges, universities, et al. try not to be too disdainful of we colonialists who do not speak 'native' english. thank Gawd.

[Dream Land]

but the "American" airlines United/Continental , Fedex , UPS etc are forever , "say again" , "confirm"....."was that for United 99???"

Yes I agree, I feel this is due to the fact that they don't get over here very often and never really get acclimated to the procedures here (SE Asia).

[TeachMe]

PacWest,

I love the airline industry and family are in it, but professionally I am a linguist / English teacher trainer, so for give me for saying that your comments on grammar and the English language make a tabloid report an an air crash look like fine journalism.

[treykule]

I just don`t know how some get their ICAO Level 4....


You dont? You make the examiner happy, is how it works.

[Dream Land]

and family are in it, but professionally I am a linguist

so for give me for saying

tabloid report an an air crash

By teachme.

Are you putting us on?

[The Dominican]

I love the airline industry and family are in it, but professionally I am a linguist / English teacher trainer, so for give me for saying that your comments on grammar and the English language make a tabloid report an an air crash look like fine journalism.

That is the single funniest post that I have read on pprune thus far, very well done sir!

A linguist.....! God that was funny

[Piltdown Man]

Linguist: lin' gw-ist - A person who eats linguine pasta.

But more seriously grammar his litte to do with ATC instructions, especially those in English. And from where I sit, some of the least understandable voices are American, especially those who've been in the job for years. Their quick fire 'yackty-yack' gets far too many "Say agains" from ATC. Some Brits also leave a little to be desired. But I've never heard broad Geordie from ATC. Shame!

Ha'way the lads.

[MikeNYC]

Getting back to the thread I would suggest that most of the young breed of Chinese Pilots have better ICAO RT skills than most of the American Pilots I have worked with (who would not pass a Chinese level 4 ICAO exam). I understand that Americans can communicate the way they want operating domestically but that does not apply when operating internationally.

ICAO level 4 or not, certainly there is a language barrier with pronunciation in this clip: AirChinaKORD.mp3 (from 2010 on LiveATC). While it's at a US airport, it's easy to see how there might be a disconnect between the two parties communicating that even ICAO standard RT would not remedy.

[FR8R H8R]

Anyone who's been to Japan knows that the English is good but the accents can be difficult. However, we're talking about China Eastern. Flying in China is the equivalent of flying in Mars airspace. Controller English is normally pretty decent but crews speak Mandarin for a reason there...because they can't speak English worth a ****.
It's always entertaining to just sit back and listen to the jabber on the Chinese chat frequency. 121.5.

[B737NG]

FAA should cut the arrogance and continue training and checking.... Polax52.

I am not sure what you mean by that? I was in alot of wholes on this planet and had seldom problems with Rednecks nore Cannucks ATC. Mostly it was downunder where you had some unpleasent teaching style ATC "exchanges" when we flew SLOP and the complaints where we are one mile off CL whilst under ADS "surveillance". That sounded arrogant to me.

Irish Controllers speak quick as well, if it is too fast then slow them down and you can be assured you get the point. It is diffrent in China, they get angry and then hyper and you get nothing out of it. I see the arrogance when they go the "oriental" way and ignore you. That is also highly unsafe IMHO.

[grimmrad]

SLF here. And then there is this classic...

ATC@JFK - Air China 981 - YouTube

[speedcock]

Next? Progressive taxi instructions?

Did a flight to Perth many, many years ago and we had progressive taxi instructions

My understanding is that progressive taxi instructions are only given if the pilots are lost and specifically request it. Why would YPPH atc give progressive taxi instructions when simple taxi clearances could have been given? The word next can have different connotations depending on the situation...if the instructions of " take the next left " when you are almost so close to the first left can lead to confusion. Those blokes lambasting totem must be the anal retentive know it all ozzie emus with heads in the Gibson desert sands.

[Dream Land]

English is good but the accents can be difficult

Spoken like a true linguist! Hillarious, keep the humor coming!

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

Having flown all over Europe, US and now in China I believe the root of the American RT problem is similar to the root of their waning global economic power .

For decades the US has globalised the world of business and trade, but now the world they changed is passing them by and in concentrating on globalising others they have neglected to globalise themselves, their home grown businesses, and have failed to internationalize themselves.

You better believe it, the Chinese pilots ( many trained in the US) are willing to learn and work hard to have more standard ICAO phraseology than the home grown FAA Pilots, who some are cringeworthy at times!

Don't even ask me how poor my Mandarin is .

[Green Guard]

if the instructions of " take the next left " when you are almost so close to the first left can lead to confusion.

I heard many time good instruction like "take the first left",
anything wrong with that one ?
I find it much more helpfull, clearer and quicker then : "take taxyway X"

You Tube

[MikeBanahan]

Ambiguity of next

Maybe it's only British English that causes the problem but to me the meaning of 'next' is often ambiguous.

When close to a turn, I and many of my friends and colleagues would consider it to be 'this' turn, the one after it to be the 'next' turn.

In particular, 'next weekend' on a Friday almost certainly means 8 days away - it would be commonplace to have to ask something like "You don't mean tomorrow do you?" to avoid misunderstanding.

It's possibly restricted to the parts of England that I have mostly lived in.

As an aside, in the North Eastern English dialect, 'while' is often understood as 'until'.

What may be apparently concise and unambiguous to one speaker of a language is not necessarily so to another with a different background.

[stepwilk]

But more seriously grammar his little to do with ATC instructions...

He said he's a linguist, not a grammarian. They're totally different. Linguists study foreign languages, which in fact does have a lot to do with ATC instructions.