China Eastern takes off without permission in apparent misunderstanding
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I had my time in Asia and I remember the difficult to understand Chinese Pilots and Controllers. Cambodian, Vietnamese and Korean where also part of the say again phrase. Out of the ordinary was difficult to sell.
It was always exciting to listen at busy Airports like LAX, JFK, LHR or FRA how some certain Pilots-Controller conversations developed stress in the Cockpit and wonder if they get it on the screens.
I remember also about 10 years ago into PEK the clearence to descent to 2.000 m and 3.000 m was diffult to understand back then. Say again made the Man on the Ground angry and his voice was raised and it was even more difficult to get the diffrence out of the Jinglish, the last few years it got better as there are more Airlines from all over the World heading for PUD and PEK and the basic got better but is still far from that was HKG has to offer.
It was always exciting to listen at busy Airports like LAX, JFK, LHR or FRA how some certain Pilots-Controller conversations developed stress in the Cockpit and wonder if they get it on the screens.
I remember also about 10 years ago into PEK the clearence to descent to 2.000 m and 3.000 m was diffult to understand back then. Say again made the Man on the Ground angry and his voice was raised and it was even more difficult to get the diffrence out of the Jinglish, the last few years it got better as there are more Airlines from all over the World heading for PUD and PEK and the basic got better but is still far from that was HKG has to offer.
Pegase Driver
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DREAM LAND :
I did not comment of which Country speaks better English in Asia, I commented on 2 remarks you made on 2 different posts : That a Flight school will give level 6 and that you needed minimum level 5.
If you were an A320 pilot as your profile claims you are you will normally know that a Flying school cannot make a licence endorsment, and that the minimum requirement is level 4 not 5.
That's all.
Hence I asumed you might not be who you claim you are. But I might be wrong of course. This is the amazement of these anonymous forums.
ATC, please advise me about all of your experience operating here in Asia, I've been operating throughout Asia for 7+ years, waiting to be enlightened.
If you were an A320 pilot as your profile claims you are you will normally know that a Flying school cannot make a licence endorsment, and that the minimum requirement is level 4 not 5.
That's all.
Hence I asumed you might not be who you claim you are. But I might be wrong of course. This is the amazement of these anonymous forums.
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Well I'm based here and think I am entitled to my own opinion, but I hear and use more "say again over" or "please spell the fix" over Japan's airspace than anywhere else in this neighborhood.
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Audio Transcripts.
If someone has the date and time of the incident and along with the airport identifier and maybe someone could post the audio. I always manage to find audio on this site.
Listen to Live ATC (Air Traffic Control) Communications | LiveATC.net
Listen to Live ATC (Air Traffic Control) Communications | LiveATC.net
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Flew to KIX in 2008, did a Go Around because a chinese carrier on short mistaken an amanded departure clearence for TO clearance. English is probably my third or fourth language, but I personally think "english being not the first language" should not be blamed for such incidents.
Even in Austalia, an australian controller issuing "join downwind report base" clearance is mistaken for a "direct base leg" by an australian RPT, whcih caused me to initiate an evasive left climbing turn at around 600'. Clearly both the pilot and ATC are native english speaking.
Even in Austalia, an australian controller issuing "join downwind report base" clearance is mistaken for a "direct base leg" by an australian RPT, whcih caused me to initiate an evasive left climbing turn at around 600'. Clearly both the pilot and ATC are native english speaking.
Even in Austalia, an australian controller issuing "join downwind report base" clearance is mistaken for a "direct base leg" by an australian RPT, whcih caused me to initiate an evasive left climbing turn at around 600'. Clearly both the pilot and ATC are native english speaking.
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Did a flight to Perth many, many years ago and we had progressive taxi instructions. We passed one intersection coming to a left taxiway just about 10 meters ahead. Instead of telling us to take the " coming immediate left taxiway " the Aussie controller said " take the next left ". We bypassed the immediate left taxiway and took the next " left " only to have the Aussie guy exasperatedly howling that we should have taken the previous left...we protested that he said the next left! He said in Oz the next left means the coming left! Jeez, we all spoke English, but different English.......why do people make life so hard for themselves and others. Just tell us, take the coming left ahead...not too difficult yeah!
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
That a Flight school will give level 6
Of course, the licensing authority should oversee the standards being applied by the flight school but this is often the weak part of the system - and not just in one particular region of the world.
Plumbum Pendular
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Totem,
Your understanding the next is different to somebody else's understanding.
I wonder if any ATC Manuals have the phrase "the coming left" in it.
Rather than encouraging non-standard phraseology why not espouse the use of standard RT, like, "Turn left onto taxiway XX".
Next:
immediately following in time, order, importance, etc.: the next day; the next person in line.
Your understanding the next is different to somebody else's understanding.
I wonder if any ATC Manuals have the phrase "the coming left" in it.
Rather than encouraging non-standard phraseology why not espouse the use of standard RT, like, "Turn left onto taxiway XX".
Next:
immediately following in time, order, importance, etc.: the next day; the next person in line.
Help!
How scary to think we share the same sky as people who think NEXT means 'the 2nd'.
Worse, he expresses exasperation that others can't agree on his own bizarre interpretation of what next means, and then wants to invent totally vague phrases about 'coming' to solve his misunderstanding.
Next is next. The next. What could be clearer? What about the storm that is coming? Is a storm going to be the very next weather you will experience? Or is it reasonable to expect the storm later on at some undefined, vague time in the future, after (possibly many) other weather types?
totempole makes an excellent case for standard phraseology, using real English, not one person's (mis)interpretation of a local dialect of 'English'.
How scary to think we share the same sky as people who think NEXT means 'the 2nd'.
Worse, he expresses exasperation that others can't agree on his own bizarre interpretation of what next means, and then wants to invent totally vague phrases about 'coming' to solve his misunderstanding.
Next is next. The next. What could be clearer? What about the storm that is coming? Is a storm going to be the very next weather you will experience? Or is it reasonable to expect the storm later on at some undefined, vague time in the future, after (possibly many) other weather types?
totempole makes an excellent case for standard phraseology, using real English, not one person's (mis)interpretation of a local dialect of 'English'.
None but a blockhead
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"Are you coming up to see me this weekend?"
"No, but I'll come up next weekend."
The 'next' problem constantly bedevils the English me and my Scottish partner, as we clearly have the different interpretations hard-wired; this is after ten years of trying to deal with it. Neither of us can really believe the other doesn't automatically use the same semantics.
But there it is, and telling the other person "But you're wrong, and weird, and should just get it right, because it's logical and everyone does it!" denies the way language works. It is frustrating, because we're all speaking the same language, right? Only we're not, and language is full of very subtle stuff like this.
Standard phraseology is the only answer, and even that won't work all the time; it too is a dialect and one that nobody will use for the majority of their speech. Mistakes will happen, and minimising those is a matter of discipline, training and watching each others' backs.
"No, but I'll come up next weekend."
The 'next' problem constantly bedevils the English me and my Scottish partner, as we clearly have the different interpretations hard-wired; this is after ten years of trying to deal with it. Neither of us can really believe the other doesn't automatically use the same semantics.
But there it is, and telling the other person "But you're wrong, and weird, and should just get it right, because it's logical and everyone does it!" denies the way language works. It is frustrating, because we're all speaking the same language, right? Only we're not, and language is full of very subtle stuff like this.
Standard phraseology is the only answer, and even that won't work all the time; it too is a dialect and one that nobody will use for the majority of their speech. Mistakes will happen, and minimising those is a matter of discipline, training and watching each others' backs.
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From my own experience around Asia it is the non English, "English" mother tongued ex-pats that are incapable of using standard radio phraseology. Mainly US and Canadians if the truth be told. They seem,as a rule, to be constrained to transmit in language that is characterised by uncommon or pretentious vocabulary and convoluted syntax that is often vague in meaning.
Just my tuppence worth
Just my tuppence worth
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This crew has done what I've done. I know how we made the mistake and as ever the 'whys' and 'hows' are the important things to learn so we don't have a repetition. In the UK for example, we have the phrase when it is vital for aircraft NOT to move which starts "Speedwell 123, hold position. [message]".
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ATC English
As a controller of over 35 years with commercial pilot ratings and working atc in HKG for over 10 years , I'm pretty happy generally with the standard of English from most of the mainland airlines. Sure , sometimes the FO stumbles along with a reply but is usually over-ridden by the Capt. if it's getting too painful. In my experience , some of the Asian airlines form countries where we assume English iscommon and well spoken - like the Philippines, Singapore and Malaysia - are terrible. SIA being one of the worst to grasp most instructions first time. But give me a China Eastern, China Southern , Air China or Hainan ANY DAY to a North American crew ( Canadians slightly better than their southern neighbours). I constantly tell my local HK Chinese trainees, to speak to these airlines as if you are talking to a 5 year old and remember that they are really not "native English" speakers!!!
Eight Gun Fighter
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Canadians only slightly better? I've flown hundreds of flight deck jumpseat hours and I assure you the English spoken is excellent. Perhaps your ESL is skewing your perceptions.
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Yes you're right. The Canadians - particularly those flying for CX are pretty good.......but the "American" airlines United/Continental , Fedex , UPS etc are forever , "say again" , "confirm"....."was that for United 99???" etc etc. In a busy traffic scene we need these extra transmissions like a hole in the head. I agree with the earlier comment about "CB talk" - just how they get on around busy US airports is a mystery! I know the (ATC) radios here and constant RFI make the job tens times harder than it needs to be - but hey, just read back what you think you hear and if it's wrong we'll correct you.