Thomson 737 lands on taxiway at Paphos?
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well for starters i think having it as 29L helps with little clarity.but then again as pilots it does not matter how small the info may seem,we need it regardless...it helps in many ways but one.
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cyprus Mail Version of event
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They made a mistake; they are human; humans make mistakes. Humans make more mistakes when they are tired. Paphos and back in a day is a long shift. Who knows what their rosters had them doing before? It will all be looked into. They work for a charter company, and at the end of the knackering summer season they are probably dulled by cumulative fatigue. The proposed Euro FTL changes will exacerbate the problem. What happened here just is the sort of mistake that usually diligent and professional people make when they are tired.
Some of the comments here are no doubt made by people who've never actually experienced an airline roster.
Some of the comments here are no doubt made by people who've never actually experienced an airline roster.
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Mowgli,
At least be sure I have experienced airline roster for years and years now; short, medium and long haul; right and left seat...That's why I mostly give suggestions and not only comments;
Yes, you are right, after such a summer season you have a lot of accumulated fatigue; it has obviously played a big role it that huge mistake;
At least be sure I have experienced airline roster for years and years now; short, medium and long haul; right and left seat...That's why I mostly give suggestions and not only comments;
Yes, you are right, after such a summer season you have a lot of accumulated fatigue; it has obviously played a big role it that huge mistake;
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Thomson Pilots
At one time Thomson pilots were deemed (mainly by themselves) to be 2nd to none and used "rigorous" initial testing to enter the Company (along with the occasional unfair discrimination). This, I believe is about the third such serious incident in 2 years. Either their recruitment policy is flawed or indiscipline and arrogance has crept back in to the Pilot workforce, again!
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flieng
The arrogant ones are pilots who think that they are not capable of making a mistake like this. The best selection procedures won't guarantee preventing errors. If you want to reduce errors, reduce fatigue. Also, look at safety culture. An organisation practicing good safety culture accepts that errors are inevitable, adopts practices to mitigate against them, and learns from making them or almost making them. We can all learn from the mistake made at Paphos. There have been some great suggestions here which could prevent this happening again (eg annotating L and R runway designators).
The arrogant ones are pilots who think that they are not capable of making a mistake like this. The best selection procedures won't guarantee preventing errors. If you want to reduce errors, reduce fatigue. Also, look at safety culture. An organisation practicing good safety culture accepts that errors are inevitable, adopts practices to mitigate against them, and learns from making them or almost making them. We can all learn from the mistake made at Paphos. There have been some great suggestions here which could prevent this happening again (eg annotating L and R runway designators).
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Pah. If it was here I might have some sympathy:
The taxiways stand out almost as much as the runways.
EDIT: Yes, briefing the plate at TOD is always a sound plan.
The taxiways stand out almost as much as the runways.
EDIT: Yes, briefing the plate at TOD is always a sound plan.
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I recognise that I regularly make mistakes and miss things; thats one reason why there's 2 of us up there. Briefings before ToD can be really effective or pointless depending on if you are just regurgitating plates or chatting through the 'how' you are actually gonna do something; what you are looking for and some what-ifs?
PFO is a long day out, but flying out there is only half way in to that long day (stating the bleeding obvious but hopefully you are not that fatigued to be drained after 3.5hrs) and the visual on to 29 was good fun; but I always had the ILS tuned too so a quick glance at that as I swung round on to finals backed up what my eyes were telling me.
Isn't it military to the north of the rwy hence the taxiway that side?
Would never comment on the guys as aviation is a great leveler.
PFO is a long day out, but flying out there is only half way in to that long day (stating the bleeding obvious but hopefully you are not that fatigued to be drained after 3.5hrs) and the visual on to 29 was good fun; but I always had the ILS tuned too so a quick glance at that as I swung round on to finals backed up what my eyes were telling me.
Isn't it military to the north of the rwy hence the taxiway that side?
Would never comment on the guys as aviation is a great leveler.
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You'd love to think that r/w lights on at all times would be possible, but I'm sure the beancounters would kill that idea in no time.
In the Gatwick Air Malta incident (at night) the runway and taxiway lighting was all displayed correctly and the crew still landed on the taxiway. Changes were subsequently made so that no taxiway lights are now visible when landing on the northern runway i.e. at night you can't see there's a taxiway there until after you vacate.
The idea of adding r/w markings to the taxiway also sounds good, but creates a 2nd runway with all of the regulations and procedures that have to go with it - again, expensive, and doesn't necessarily remove the problem. If LCPH had a 29L would that really stop an aircraft landing on it instead of 29R since now the only difference is the runway numbers?
The best hope for preventing this kind of thing is to understand why the crew made the error (whether through fatigue/poor visual cues or any of the other factors already mentioned) and I hope the investigation approaches the incident in such a way as to make that possible.
In the Gatwick Air Malta incident (at night) the runway and taxiway lighting was all displayed correctly and the crew still landed on the taxiway. Changes were subsequently made so that no taxiway lights are now visible when landing on the northern runway i.e. at night you can't see there's a taxiway there until after you vacate.
The idea of adding r/w markings to the taxiway also sounds good, but creates a 2nd runway with all of the regulations and procedures that have to go with it - again, expensive, and doesn't necessarily remove the problem. If LCPH had a 29L would that really stop an aircraft landing on it instead of 29R since now the only difference is the runway numbers?
The best hope for preventing this kind of thing is to understand why the crew made the error (whether through fatigue/poor visual cues or any of the other factors already mentioned) and I hope the investigation approaches the incident in such a way as to make that possible.
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Big Trev,
your comment on fatigue may be true if their previous duties were Days Off. Most likely, their roster was like mine, where Pafos is the 2nd. or third duty after an very early start on Saturday. Usually finishes with a delightful night trip to Bodrum, where I can tell you I'm well whacked on the outbound sector. (please, no TSGR tonight!). I'm not excusing the error, but like all a/c accidents, multiple factors lead up to it.
IMHO all these Eastern Med flights to Cyprus and Egypt should be Level 2 variations or nightstops. Airlines are so desparate to save a few dollars/quid that they stretch us to breaking point and then wonder why we make mistakes.
your comment on fatigue may be true if their previous duties were Days Off. Most likely, their roster was like mine, where Pafos is the 2nd. or third duty after an very early start on Saturday. Usually finishes with a delightful night trip to Bodrum, where I can tell you I'm well whacked on the outbound sector. (please, no TSGR tonight!). I'm not excusing the error, but like all a/c accidents, multiple factors lead up to it.
IMHO all these Eastern Med flights to Cyprus and Egypt should be Level 2 variations or nightstops. Airlines are so desparate to save a few dollars/quid that they stretch us to breaking point and then wonder why we make mistakes.
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Macdo agreed.. as all of us that do this know it's not just what you've done in the days leading up to a trip but it's the result of long term fatigue after doing such flights throughout the summer... it takes it's toll.. bean counters will never take that on board.. "it's legal so get on with it".. hopefully the accident that is waiting to happen (and nearly did at Paphos) won't be too costly. I'm not criticising that crew in any way.
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@flieng
Hope you are well wherever you are ?
You said
Sorry you still feel this way after so long. My sim partner when I was doing my type rating on the 737 back in 2007 was an ex Britannia eng, so things did chnage although I think he had left the company and worked in Europe contracting for a while before returning ?
You also said
I don't think this has anything to do with making a mistake on the day ?
Just to add, I was with Thomson for 3 years and flew to Paphos once, at night time in the dark. Would still class myself as never been.
Thoughts with the crew and hope they are back flying soon.
Great bunch of guys and apart from the new management that came with the merger, great company to work for. Would hve stayed there until I retired, but, thats life. Now getting use to the 320 and the dessert :-) and in no rush what so ever to return to the UK
Hope you are well wherever you are ?
You said
along with the occasional unfair discrimination
You also said
Either their recruitment policy is flawed or indiscipline and arrogance has crept back in to the Pilot workforce, again!
Just to add, I was with Thomson for 3 years and flew to Paphos once, at night time in the dark. Would still class myself as never been.
Thoughts with the crew and hope they are back flying soon.
Great bunch of guys and apart from the new management that came with the merger, great company to work for. Would hve stayed there until I retired, but, thats life. Now getting use to the 320 and the dessert :-) and in no rush what so ever to return to the UK
Last edited by EGCC4284; 11th Oct 2011 at 12:28.
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Originally Posted by macdo
IMHO all these Eastern Med flights to Cyprus and Egypt
Whilst I sympathise with the sentiment, I think that to ask for Level 2 on 'Cyprus and Egypt' is unreasonable. Several longer Egypt flight do fall into Level2, and Cyprus is not that long a day.
>>Cyprus is not that long a day.<<
Used to do LCA and return out of BFS in a 734. Sometimes took over 5 hours to get back and just final reserve on the ramp from full tanks. Brain working like stink from Greece onwards, to make sure we got it right. Thank goodness for good F/Os and also to other aircraft willing to swap levels so we could get out of the winds.
Yep, BOAC, only a 2 sector day but right on FTL limits (without taxying times). One was expected to not end up in STA, EMA or MCR.
Oh, yes, TCI/rtb. the day before and 4 sector BGO/PMI the day after; min rest.
No, not that long a day..............but I'm sure you have further horror stories.
Crews have been used for years. Admit it.
Used to do LCA and return out of BFS in a 734. Sometimes took over 5 hours to get back and just final reserve on the ramp from full tanks. Brain working like stink from Greece onwards, to make sure we got it right. Thank goodness for good F/Os and also to other aircraft willing to swap levels so we could get out of the winds.
Yep, BOAC, only a 2 sector day but right on FTL limits (without taxying times). One was expected to not end up in STA, EMA or MCR.
Oh, yes, TCI/rtb. the day before and 4 sector BGO/PMI the day after; min rest.
No, not that long a day..............but I'm sure you have further horror stories.
Crews have been used for years. Admit it.
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but I'm sure you have further horror stories
No-one is suggesting it was enjoyable, nor was LGW-TLV-LGW on a Classic (5:15 each way with a 1:15 turn) but it was do-able, even if excess (30%) discretion eventually caused the 'sleeping regulator' to step in (and it went to a 3 day main-line trip, poor dears
)
Crews have been used for years. Admit it.