Caribbean B738 at Georgetown on Jul 30, 2011, overran runway
but the latest amendment is to actually check the performance if the RWY LDA is less than a certain length, depending on type.
Centaurus
A little harsh but correct.
It's a little like automation. It aint the tool that's bad it's the interface that needs work.
Nevertheless PPRuners have a way of polarizing around human perfection and fouled up technology.
That means nothing in the real world and is there to cover management if lawyers get into the act. Most of the over-runs seen on accident reports published on PPRuNe were on runways that were well within legal performance limits. The problem has always been the press on regardless mentality of some pilots linked to reckless flying, overconfidence and occasionally ethnic culture that relies on a personal Deity to save the day.
It's a little like automation. It aint the tool that's bad it's the interface that needs work.
Nevertheless PPRuners have a way of polarizing around human perfection and fouled up technology.
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Something that is not normally trained for is a go-around after touchdown. One large American carrier is to begin training this on their 737 fleet. While not prohibited (most airlines teach only to stay on the ground after reverser deployment), very few pilots have been trained on this procedure and therefore not confident in doing it. Just think of how many overruns would have been eliminated with a go-around after touchdown.
One could never build performance charts for this event due to the number of variables (touchdown point, excess speed) so I am assuming some sort of guidelines are established beyond reversers deployed/stay on ground.
And, almost every overrun is preceded by a unstable approach.
GO AROUND!!!!
One could never build performance charts for this event due to the number of variables (touchdown point, excess speed) so I am assuming some sort of guidelines are established beyond reversers deployed/stay on ground.
And, almost every overrun is preceded by a unstable approach.
GO AROUND!!!!
The industry should be much more concerned about overrun accidents than they appear to be. There have been enough ‘non-fatal’ close calls to statistically warrant the real big-one.
Its good news that some parts of industry are taking this seriously, but is even more SOPs really the answer. Cross checking landing performance before each landing surely is a must before every landing – airmanship / professionalism. These checks are not just the cursory review of what the dispatch computer printout forecast, the task has to be an active assessment / reassessment of the actual conditions at the time of landing. Most operating regulations require this – “the Captain has to ensure that the conditions are sufficient for a safe landing”.
Checking the landing distance margin available (percentage of max allowed landing wt) provides a guide to the level of braking required. It can be a baseline on which to judge any tolerance to an error in runway conditions reporting – ‘runway is wet’, but the aircraft could still land if it were flooded (recent storm / poor drainage / slippery surface).
Its good news that some parts of industry are taking this seriously, but is even more SOPs really the answer. Cross checking landing performance before each landing surely is a must before every landing – airmanship / professionalism. These checks are not just the cursory review of what the dispatch computer printout forecast, the task has to be an active assessment / reassessment of the actual conditions at the time of landing. Most operating regulations require this – “the Captain has to ensure that the conditions are sufficient for a safe landing”.
Checking the landing distance margin available (percentage of max allowed landing wt) provides a guide to the level of braking required. It can be a baseline on which to judge any tolerance to an error in runway conditions reporting – ‘runway is wet’, but the aircraft could still land if it were flooded (recent storm / poor drainage / slippery surface).
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Just think of how many overruns would have been eliminated with a go-around after touchdown.
Don't ask for a "long landing" even if the runway is 4000m long...... it starts to establish in the mindset that it's "ok" and then you do it one day on a runway that isn't quite as long... and it's wet.... and ungrooved.... Why do people land long on purpose? To save 15 seconds
It seems impossible to imagine that a crew flying a 4 year old modern jet transport could, apparently, make such a fundamental error as to not select flap/slat and then ignore all associated warnings resulting in an over-run. Incredible. The ONLY reason I can think of is fatigue or perilous fuel state.
Final report will be very interesting.
A4
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Taking off after touchdown.
Attempting a take-off after touching down is going to be a can of worms. The decision has to be very critical. You are going to have to reset the flaps to a take-off setting, change the stabiliser setting, retract the speed brakes, set the new take-off power setting and now have new V1, VR, V2 etc speeds. I cannot see this being approved by the authorities.
Last edited by dhardesthard; 11th Aug 2011 at 17:36. Reason: duplication of one word.
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dhardest - it's already approved and in the flight manuals/SOP's for every airliner I've flown(6+).
Rejected landing after touchdown, or similar wording, describes the procedure.
Rejected landing after touchdown, or similar wording, describes the procedure.
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IF it is pilot error what would interest me is why an experienced Captain could make such an error. Fatigue for instance?
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Flew through Kingston today, and i saw 2 Caribbean airlines 738 vacating rwy there. both times, i was paying attention on the flap setting before and while they were vacating the rwy. and ofcourse, both times these were fully retracted before even getting to the runway end.
maybe a little culture thing with them ? not speculating anything, but after reading this thread and getting all the input of retracting flaps and so and so, my best guess would be this. too early retraction. misjudging the roll out speed, and maybe skidding off.
thought to share the info, (making a new account just to reply)
sad
maybe a little culture thing with them ? not speculating anything, but after reading this thread and getting all the input of retracting flaps and so and so, my best guess would be this. too early retraction. misjudging the roll out speed, and maybe skidding off.
thought to share the info, (making a new account just to reply)
sad
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Captjns,
What exactly do you mean by this?
Seems that if he's described as experienced that he must have been up to the task thousands of times before.
It is my opinion that fatigue factors are not taken seriously enough!
Because the mission has to be completed on the first go
or not up to the task.
The fatigue card is thrown out on the table way too many timesl.
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Well...
(AA1420 in Little Rock AK. AA in Kingston, Jamaica, Air India Express in Mangalore, India). Many accidents resulting in overruns or excursions have resulted in unstablized approaches. Would you agree if a missed approach or go-around had been executed I/A/W company SOPs these incidents may have been avoided? Let's face it sometimes egos take over where commen sense should.
As for
There are training and checking departments within airlines that are inadequate within themselves that pass crewmembers' PCs and LPCs. (Take the crew of the Q400 in Buffalo for instance. Weak captain that was pushed through the system after a number of failures during his entire career even before joining the airlines. There was the F/O who was either unprepared, undertrained, or not of the proper mindset for flyng in cold weather adverse conditions). Also weak F/Os are afraid to speak up too. With that being said, they are part of the problem and not part of the solutions
As for
Some crews who should have been responsible take required rest on layover don't. It's a fact of life of the airline industry.
Should a LOI to violate arise due to improper operations then the "Fatigue Card" is thown onto the table (EK flight from Melbourne that experienced a tail strike on deprature due to incorrect data being entered in the FMC.)
"As to complete the mission on the first go."
As for
"Not up to the task"
As for
fatigue card?
Should a LOI to violate arise due to improper operations then the "Fatigue Card" is thown onto the table (EK flight from Melbourne that experienced a tail strike on deprature due to incorrect data being entered in the FMC.)
Yes we are trained in Rejected Landings.
Quite simple really.
Apply TOGA ( t/o Warning will sound, ground spoilers retract and autobrakes disarm )
Leave the Flaps
Accelerate to VAPP ( Airbus ) VREF ( Boeing )
At VAPP/VREF and TOGA thrust Rotate
After Airborne and positive climb it becomes a normal Go Around ie "Go Around Flap 3" ( or 2 ) Followed by Gear up etc .....
Or for Boeing 737 "Go around Set thrust flap 15" Followed by Gear up etc...
However, once Reverse Thrust is applied a full stop is mandatory.
Quite simple really.
Apply TOGA ( t/o Warning will sound, ground spoilers retract and autobrakes disarm )
Leave the Flaps
Accelerate to VAPP ( Airbus ) VREF ( Boeing )
At VAPP/VREF and TOGA thrust Rotate
After Airborne and positive climb it becomes a normal Go Around ie "Go Around Flap 3" ( or 2 ) Followed by Gear up etc .....
Or for Boeing 737 "Go around Set thrust flap 15" Followed by Gear up etc...
However, once Reverse Thrust is applied a full stop is mandatory.
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Go-Around after Touchdown
Go-Around after Touchdown
If a go-around is initiated before touchdown and touchdown occurs, continue with normal go-around procedures. The F/D go-around mode will continue to provide go-around guidance commands throughout the maneuver.
If a go-around is initiated after touchdown but before thrust reverser selection, auto speedbrakes retract and autobrakes disarm as thrust levers are advanced. The F/D go-around mode will not be available until go-around is selected after becoming airborne.
Once reverse thrust is initiated following touchdown, a full stop landing must be made. If an engine stays in reverse, safe flight is not possible.
From the Boeing FCTM
Go-Around after Touchdown
If a go-around is initiated before touchdown and touchdown occurs, continue with normal go-around procedures. The F/D go-around mode will continue to provide go-around guidance commands throughout the maneuver.
If a go-around is initiated after touchdown but before thrust reverser selection, auto speedbrakes retract and autobrakes disarm as thrust levers are advanced. The F/D go-around mode will not be available until go-around is selected after becoming airborne.
Once reverse thrust is initiated following touchdown, a full stop landing must be made. If an engine stays in reverse, safe flight is not possible.
From the Boeing FCTM
I think the talk about training for go-arounds after touchdown is a slippery red herring. You need to look at the likely circumstances in which such a procedure might be performed. We're not talking about base training.
A pilot who has not performed a go-around despite an unstable approach in bad weather or who touches down long despite the runway being wet or of marginal length is already of a particular mindset. He or she will be desperate to finally get on the ground and will therefore almost certainly initiate maximum reverse thrust as soon as the main wheels touch down. If he or she is not of that mindset the chances are they will have already performed a go-around or baulked landing.
One only has to look at the incident in Mangalore in India to see the dangers of attempting a go-around after touchdown if reversers have been deployed.
A pilot who has not performed a go-around despite an unstable approach in bad weather or who touches down long despite the runway being wet or of marginal length is already of a particular mindset. He or she will be desperate to finally get on the ground and will therefore almost certainly initiate maximum reverse thrust as soon as the main wheels touch down. If he or she is not of that mindset the chances are they will have already performed a go-around or baulked landing.
One only has to look at the incident in Mangalore in India to see the dangers of attempting a go-around after touchdown if reversers have been deployed.
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Flaps and slats put to rest.
The aircraft was properly configured for a 30 flap landing!!! After impact the cable from the flap handle to actuator, did not break, but was under 7 times normal tension due to the bent fuselage, this resulted in an up selection to the actuator, somehow there was enough residual Hyd. psi to retract them. Beleive it!