Caribbean B738 at Georgetown on Jul 30, 2011, overran runway
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By the damage inflicted to it, would it be safe to assume a runway excursion on a rather low forward speed? Lets say, below 100kt?
The wx conditions at around the misshap time:
SYCJ 300600Z 00000KT 9000 BKN015 24/24 Q1008 NOSIG
SYCJ 300500Z 00000KT 9000 -SHRA FEW014CB BKN015 25/24 Q1009 CB-NE-ENE NOSIG
SYCJ 300423Z 00000KT 9999 TS FEW015CB SCT016 CB-NE-ENE NOSIG
Seems they were trying to stop it until the last moment
The wx conditions at around the misshap time:
SYCJ 300600Z 00000KT 9000 BKN015 24/24 Q1008 NOSIG
SYCJ 300500Z 00000KT 9000 -SHRA FEW014CB BKN015 25/24 Q1009 CB-NE-ENE NOSIG
SYCJ 300423Z 00000KT 9999 TS FEW015CB SCT016 CB-NE-ENE NOSIG
Seems they were trying to stop it until the last moment
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As to the lack of flaps/slats.....perhaps that particular Captain retracted them at touchdown on short runways to dump the lift and, supposedly help with the stopping. Just a thought. I never did that but it WILL work.
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Short runway, gets shorter when wet.
Operated in/out of Georgetown for 6+ years in the B-707. As previously mentioned, the ILS was "intermittant", often going OTS in bad weather. Had the runway lights stolen ( copper $$ ) twice. So, security no so secure.
Short runway, often wet, ILS untrustworthy, lighting probably works, in a very black hole in the jungle. Fun times.
I have to say though, I worked with some of the nicest, giving people I ever knew ( Guyanese ).
Short runway, often wet, ILS untrustworthy, lighting probably works, in a very black hole in the jungle. Fun times.
I have to say though, I worked with some of the nicest, giving people I ever knew ( Guyanese ).
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Shell Management...
Seeing the AA pictures just serves to remind that the airline industry is not learning (and relearning) fast enougth.
Pillock.
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Many here are mentioning the ILS, funny enough I am unable to find any chart for the said ILS (neither for 06 or 24) on my jeppview software, properly updated. Gone for good?
There are four IALs available: two RNAV (24 and 06) and two VOR (06 only)
There are four IALs available: two RNAV (24 and 06) and two VOR (06 only)
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Didn't take long
'Maybe it says something about the quality of the pilots / planes in those regions'
Not sure what Ross M meant, but i wondered how long before this kind of insinuation would come out.. funny didn't hear this when AF overran in Montreal, Iberia in Colombia or somewhere down there with the 340, when EK did a great deal of damage in JNB or AA in Kingston recently, etc., etc.
Come on guys.... it may well be human error, but lets not regionalize it.
I do agree from first-hand experience that there seems to be an inordinate amount of credit given for smooth landings as an indicator of good performance in the region, and i agree with other commentators that this certainly would not have been an occasion for such a landing if the weather reports and assumed runway surface condition is correct...
Not sure what Ross M meant, but i wondered how long before this kind of insinuation would come out.. funny didn't hear this when AF overran in Montreal, Iberia in Colombia or somewhere down there with the 340, when EK did a great deal of damage in JNB or AA in Kingston recently, etc., etc.
Come on guys.... it may well be human error, but lets not regionalize it.
I do agree from first-hand experience that there seems to be an inordinate amount of credit given for smooth landings as an indicator of good performance in the region, and i agree with other commentators that this certainly would not have been an occasion for such a landing if the weather reports and assumed runway surface condition is correct...
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B738 landing distance with all flaps up
Includes 305m air distance from threshold, max reverse and max manual brakes
Dry RWY 1225m / 4020ft
Medium braking action 2340m / 7670ft
Poor braking action 3090m / 10200ft
Problem with flaps, distant/bad weather alternate, checked the books and decided that they can just make it. Got caught between assumed and actual
braking action or by some of the adjustments for speed/weight/slope of the
basic distance, another 100-200m.
Includes 305m air distance from threshold, max reverse and max manual brakes
Dry RWY 1225m / 4020ft
Medium braking action 2340m / 7670ft
Poor braking action 3090m / 10200ft
Problem with flaps, distant/bad weather alternate, checked the books and decided that they can just make it. Got caught between assumed and actual
braking action or by some of the adjustments for speed/weight/slope of the
basic distance, another 100-200m.
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A FA friend mentioned, on B738s, once the emergency evacuation is activated,the flaps will retract to allow pax to use the overwing exits as an evacuation area...
Internal culture.
As ZQA commented
I do hope they can stand an audit. Most of the trainers and fleet managers from the old BWIA along with more than half the line pilots plus the same with the ex Air Jamaica pilots who were merged had to find new homes, mainly in the UAE, UK, US and India.
Too early to speculate what happened, or why it happened, but when BWIA was closed, many of the more experienced pilots were picked up by sandpit operators. The pilots union was squeezed out, and a new philosophy was put in place. Let us say it was slanted to "productivity".
They say that a safety culture dies slowly unless nurtured carefully.
It has been 5 years since the old regime was broken up, I hope the replacement will stand scrutiny in the investigation.
They say that a safety culture dies slowly unless nurtured carefully.
It has been 5 years since the old regime was broken up, I hope the replacement will stand scrutiny in the investigation.
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From my NG Cockpit Companion, the horn is activated if flaps up through 10 and thrust levers are set for landing. From my memory the horn is loud enough to wake the dead.
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It's a sad day for Aviation in Trinidad. No hull loses from a national carrier in history. A sader day for the crew...
This could happen to anyone so think about that before you hang anyone out to dry.
This could happen to anyone so think about that before you hang anyone out to dry.
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@Reverse flight.
Plus GPWS yelling "too low, flaps!!"
I doubt the approach was made without flaps, unless pilots were totally deaf.
If memory serves me, policy on flap/slat retraction was "clear of runway, with aircraft under control". I dont think both conditions were met.
Plus GPWS yelling "too low, flaps!!"
I doubt the approach was made without flaps, unless pilots were totally deaf.
If memory serves me, policy on flap/slat retraction was "clear of runway, with aircraft under control". I dont think both conditions were met.
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I doubt anything aft of the fuselage fracture would be still controlable from the flightdeck.
It is possible to retract/extent flaps/slats with the electric pumps but when the electrical wires are severed between flightdeck and pump it will not be possible.
This of course goes for all other systems which are controlled in similar fashion.
It is possible to retract/extent flaps/slats with the electric pumps but when the electrical wires are severed between flightdeck and pump it will not be possible.
This of course goes for all other systems which are controlled in similar fashion.
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Caribbean fleet changes
Just following up on some comments made about the airline's training, I note that in the days leading up to this incident, the carrier added two more 738s (one brand new, 9Y-SXM, from Boeing, and another, 9Y-JMF, which was delivered from SNN on the 28th), with a third, 9Y-JMC, to be added imminently; I know it's not a large airline and presumably this addition of new aircraft would have put a lot of pressure on the airline's training dept.
Do we know anything about the experience of the crew involved in this incident?
Do we know anything about the experience of the crew involved in this incident?
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I doubt the approach was made without flaps, unless pilots were totally deaf.
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A FA friend mentioned, on B738s, once the emergency evacuation is activated,the flaps will retract to allow pax to use the overwing exits as an evacuation area...
There is no way, this plane would have landed with 0 flap settings...
There is no way, this plane would have landed with 0 flap settings...
If time allows verify flaps are at 40 etc etc..
If the hydraulics fail the flaps/slats lock out not retract.. that's why we have hydraulic fuses
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Flox- you have the estimation for their required landing distance flaps up with poor braking action at well over 3000 metres. A quick look at the reported runway length of 7540 ft makes it something that was never going to happen.
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I thinks they already selected flaps up during the landing roll and when finally stopped obviously not able to select flap 40 again. To me more interesting, did they use reverse untill 60 kt, were they braking from the beginning till the end, and what was the AB setting? That's probably something we'll read in the report...