US Airways Captain Escorted from Aircraft
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woodyspoony:
Your contract pilot didn't have the protection of a union.
Although pilot unions are not all that effective in some respects, they are very effective when it comes to any attempt at reprisal of that nature. First, there is the training committee that will be all over such a bust. Second, there is the union's governing council, which can really make management squirm if it engages in such action.
Finally, the check pilot who does such a bust will be a star witness for the union at the grievance hearing (or hearings, if it goes to an arbitrator).
I hope our lady captain come away totally unscathed but be warned; the knives will be out and pain can come at the most unexpected time when you think everything has blown away......just my 2 cents!
Although pilot unions are not all that effective in some respects, they are very effective when it comes to any attempt at reprisal of that nature. First, there is the training committee that will be all over such a bust. Second, there is the union's governing council, which can really make management squirm if it engages in such action.
Finally, the check pilot who does such a bust will be a star witness for the union at the grievance hearing (or hearings, if it goes to an arbitrator).
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The other day in my flight school one of my fellow instructors did a interview for the regional skywest. Among other congratulations another instructor said:
"And best of all, no unions in skywest"
No wonder why regional pilots are in such a bad position in the us. But no pitty, its clearly their fault with attitudes like these, hopefully after my visa expires i can land a job in a country where pilots are respected
"And best of all, no unions in skywest"
No wonder why regional pilots are in such a bad position in the us. But no pitty, its clearly their fault with attitudes like these, hopefully after my visa expires i can land a job in a country where pilots are respected
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As Harry Reid has alleged, the Republicans wants to prevent the unionization in the upcoming air carriers as cooateral to the current funding crisis to the FAA.
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Oh Senior Dispatcher - get yourself an ATPL and come back when you know what the Skipper's job entails you d1psh1t
After 30+ years of doing this, suffice it say that I know full well what the PIC's job entails, what mine entails, and how each party can (and should) better interface. I've done about 300 hours of jumpseat observation time (if not more) over that 30 years to see the crew's world, but I've yet to see a PIC (or F/O) sit down with me for 3 hours of Dispatch observation time to see our world, let alone 300 hours. You don't know what you're missing...
I don't know what regs you operate under in whatever part of the world you're in, but if they're different than the FAA's Part 121 that was being discussed, so be it. If you do have dispatchers where you work (and I don't mean "dispatchers" who work airside, boarding flights, etc.), maybe your visiting your own would be informative, and generate a valid operational discussion or two.
Of course, tossing out an obscenity to a compete stranger is so much easier--Not professional or classy, mind you, just easier...
Have a nice day...
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SD - "I've done about 300 hours of jumpseat observation time (if not more) over that 30 years to see the crew's world, but I've yet to see a PIC (or F/O) sit down with me for 3 hours of Dispatch observation time to see our world, let alone 300 hours"
Hmmm, every time I've visited dispatch you weren't there.
Hmmm, every time I've visited dispatch you weren't there.
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Senior Dispatcher:
Not hardly. There is the small matter of the minimum flight time to qualify for an ATP. Then, for an air carrier type rating, B767 for example, there is ground school, then a considerable amount of simulator. And, if it is the first air carrier type, then there must be some airplane time before flying in scheduled operations. If it is a subsequent type rating, then there is IOE with a check airman in line operations.
When I was in student captain class at my airline in 1967 the director of training said, "I can rate a monkey in a DC-9 (the class we were in). Qualifying to fly the line is a very different matter."
Amen to that I say.
As to your riding the jump seat that was easy enough for you. My dispatch office was in New York and I was based in Los Angeles.
The senior director of flight operations at TWA in the 1970s wanted to do away with the dispatch function. He felt captains could do it all quite nicely, coupled with a good company weather department. I felt he was right.
But, politics prevailed.
Actually, since the written test for the FAA's ADX certificate shares about 98% of its material with the FAA's ATP written test, for all practical intents and purposes (save the actual flying bit) I already have one, thanks...
When I was in student captain class at my airline in 1967 the director of training said, "I can rate a monkey in a DC-9 (the class we were in). Qualifying to fly the line is a very different matter."
Amen to that I say.
As to your riding the jump seat that was easy enough for you. My dispatch office was in New York and I was based in Los Angeles.
The senior director of flight operations at TWA in the 1970s wanted to do away with the dispatch function. He felt captains could do it all quite nicely, coupled with a good company weather department. I felt he was right.
But, politics prevailed.
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msid-agin said:
Hmmm, every time I've visited dispatch you weren't there.
Hmmm, every time I've visited dispatch you weren't there.
aterpster said:
Not hardly. There is the small matter of the minimum flight time to qualify for an ATP.
Not hardly. There is the small matter of the minimum flight time to qualify for an ATP.
It’s a shame that you were never able to visit TWA’s office at JFK, as I knew several of their folks and they were all good eggs. Ditto for Ozark’s STL office, pre-merger. The comments you attributed to that TWA Sr, Dir. of Flt. Ops are not all that surprising, as it’s been my experience (multiple airlines) that most management types misunderstand dispatch (and operational control) just as many pilots misunderstand. Not all pilots, mind you, but many. The myths and misconceptions are plentiful, and most would be easily dispelled with some office visits. I think we have much more in common than we have differences, and we fight many of the same battles.
As an aside, you may find it ironic that TWA was the airline that I always wanted to work for. Attending Jr. HS in Overland Park in the late 1960s, myself and another student arranged a career day field trip to TWA’s sims that (at the time) were located downtown, across the river from MKC. In fact, my folks were renting a house owned by a TWA pilot who was flying freighters over in Saudi. Dave Meyer..something, IIRC…
Cheers...
[/THREADCREEP]
Last edited by SeniorDispatcher; 5th Aug 2011 at 17:06.
Because I read some mentions that the captain 'may' have been involved in an unauthorised annoucement to passengers before being escorted away,
this just caught my eye on cnn, and I thought, does this mean Quantas pilots are going to be escorted away by security from the FD during flight LOL/after arrival, when making these 'unauthorised' announcements also ?
Qantas pilots industrial action | CNNGo.com
this just caught my eye on cnn, and I thought, does this mean Quantas pilots are going to be escorted away by security from the FD during flight LOL/after arrival, when making these 'unauthorised' announcements also ?
Qantas pilots industrial action | CNNGo.com
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SeniorDispatcher:
The sims and the ground schools for pilots and flight attendants were in an old building at 1301 Baltimore Avenue that TWA rented for $800 per month in perpetuity. That was the way it was when I started in January, 1964. Several years later the simulators moved out to MCI and the flight attendant training moved to Overland Park.
I was based at MKC for my first captain assignment on the DC-9 for part of 1967 and 68, then I returned to LAX. My then-wife and I lived in Mission, KS. I didn't know it at the time but the (in)famous Dr. Phil was a high school student right down the street in, I believe, Merriam (sp?)
For my first 8, or so, years TWA had dispatch in LAX, MKC, and JFK. So, I interacted with both LAX and MKC dispatch on a regular in-person basis in those days. One of them at LAX was outstanding and quite helpful. The others were just there.
The senior vice president of flight ops was Ed Frankum, aka "The Black Knight."
TWA was a great airline until the bankers took over and formed Trans World Corporation. Then, the slide downhill began, at first ever so slowly. TWA was bigger than AAL before the bankers took over and almost as big as UAL. They could have grown, but the bankers used the airline as a cash cow for other ventures.
As an aside, you may find it ironic that TWA was the airline that I always wanted to work for. Attending Jr. HS in Overland Park in the late 1960s, myself and another student arranged a career day field trip to TWA’s sims that (at the time) were located downtown, across the river from MKC. In fact, my folks were renting a house owned by a TWA pilot who was flying freighters over in Saudi. Dave Meyer..something, IIRC…
I was based at MKC for my first captain assignment on the DC-9 for part of 1967 and 68, then I returned to LAX. My then-wife and I lived in Mission, KS. I didn't know it at the time but the (in)famous Dr. Phil was a high school student right down the street in, I believe, Merriam (sp?)
For my first 8, or so, years TWA had dispatch in LAX, MKC, and JFK. So, I interacted with both LAX and MKC dispatch on a regular in-person basis in those days. One of them at LAX was outstanding and quite helpful. The others were just there.
The senior vice president of flight ops was Ed Frankum, aka "The Black Knight."
TWA was a great airline until the bankers took over and formed Trans World Corporation. Then, the slide downhill began, at first ever so slowly. TWA was bigger than AAL before the bankers took over and almost as big as UAL. They could have grown, but the bankers used the airline as a cash cow for other ventures.
SD,
Your remark re FD JS time moves me to make a point here, not just to you personally but to the majority of non-pilots.
Sitting looking is nothing like doing the job. I have flown as Systems Panel Operator and FO on the TriStar. It is an absolute piece of wee-wee to sit there and observe small errors taking place
Even some flight engineers who, of course, know the machine technically and, by training and/or observation, understand the aerodynamics and navigation think it's a piece of cake. In one airline, we had a Flight Engineer Entry Pilot Scheme for our younger redundant FEs. A few of the guys had the grace to admit that, once you're in the hot seat, it's nothing like as easy as it seems from the back.
I can assure you that my RAF training was the most difficult thing I'd ever done, followed, some way behind, by the Cathay command course.
One of the slightly confusing areas is that the USA dispatcher's responsibilities are rather different from most of the rest of the world. I recollect falling foul of a rather silly woman in Tampa who went so far as to complain to my boss in the UK about my method of load and balance calculation. She saw a poor old 60+ two bar FO but didn't realise that a year before, he'd been a B747 captain.
I don't approve of name calling.
p.s. who's going to be first to spot the hypocrisy?
Your remark re FD JS time moves me to make a point here, not just to you personally but to the majority of non-pilots.
Sitting looking is nothing like doing the job. I have flown as Systems Panel Operator and FO on the TriStar. It is an absolute piece of wee-wee to sit there and observe small errors taking place
Even some flight engineers who, of course, know the machine technically and, by training and/or observation, understand the aerodynamics and navigation think it's a piece of cake. In one airline, we had a Flight Engineer Entry Pilot Scheme for our younger redundant FEs. A few of the guys had the grace to admit that, once you're in the hot seat, it's nothing like as easy as it seems from the back.
I can assure you that my RAF training was the most difficult thing I'd ever done, followed, some way behind, by the Cathay command course.
One of the slightly confusing areas is that the USA dispatcher's responsibilities are rather different from most of the rest of the world. I recollect falling foul of a rather silly woman in Tampa who went so far as to complain to my boss in the UK about my method of load and balance calculation. She saw a poor old 60+ two bar FO but didn't realise that a year before, he'd been a B747 captain.
I don't approve of name calling.
p.s. who's going to be first to spot the hypocrisy?
Last edited by Basil; 6th Aug 2011 at 09:27.
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As soon as it moves under it's own power I'll decide that it's not airworthy and come back on stand, then...
I'll accept the aeroplane again and as soon as it moves under it's own power I'll come back on stand, then...
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That rental house owned by the TWA freighter pilot was technically in Mission, KS, and was a mere two blocks from the Breen F/A training facility at Nall and US. 50.. I remember when it was under construction.
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LSM said:
Ok then. I'll accept the aeroplane if you decide that I should.
As soon as it moves under it's own power I'll decide that it's not airworthy and come back on stand, then...
I'll accept the aeroplane again and as soon as it moves under it's own power I'll come back on stand, then...
Ok then. I'll accept the aeroplane if you decide that I should.
As soon as it moves under it's own power I'll decide that it's not airworthy and come back on stand, then...
I'll accept the aeroplane again and as soon as it moves under it's own power I'll come back on stand, then...
In my airline's (FAR Part 121) MEL Preamble secion, under "Responsibility For Decision", it states that the Captain and the Dispatcher have the ability and responsibility to decline an aircraft, irrespective of MEL permissiveness, if either don't feel the aircraft is safe for the intended operation.
There are probably some out there that will interpret this as a dilution of a PIC's authority, but it's actually a backstop to it. It's not as if a dispatcher's "yes" can overrule a PIC's "no", but rather a potential situation of a dispatcher's "no" overruling a PIC's "yes". I've had more than one situation over the years where an overzealous PIC (or MX controller) really wanted to move a sick aircraft to a point where the crew domicile or maintenance facility was located, and have had to be the one to put the kabosh on the operation, both for the benefit to the passengers and the corporate enitity itself. PIC authority is not unfettered, that's why FAR 91.3 doesn't actually apply to operations conducted under Part 121, and FAR 121.533/121.557 (Domestic) and 121.535/121.557 (Flag) do.
I can genuinely and honestly say that anytime a PIC has ever refused one of the aircraft that’s been assigned to me, I’ve supported their decision, even though in a few rare cases I personally thought it was completely safe –and- legal to have operated. I don’t subscribe to “pilot pushing.” In the relatively few cases where I was the one to refuse an aircraft, the PIC wasn’t necessarily in disagreement as to the non-airworthiness of the aircraft, but didn’t want to complicate their own schedule by fessing up and saying “nyet” themselves. The well-known “get-there-its” virus has many different strains…
Cheers…
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Just noticed this story on my morning email run... An update on the legal actions...
US Airways Pilots Say Safety, Not Union Slowdown, Is Causing Flight Delays - Bloomberg
US Airways Pilots Say Safety, Not Union Slowdown, Is Causing Flight Delays - Bloomberg
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SD - and Captain Wells testified in court -
US Airways captain describes airport eviction
TheStreet.com, Aug. 20, 2011
For the first time, a US Airways(LCC) captain has publicly described an incident where two security officials escorted her from the airport's secure area after she would not fly a plane from Philadelphia to Rome because of electrical system problems.
Captain Valerie Wells, a 30-year pilot, discussed the June 16 incident on Friday in U.S. District Court in Charlotte, where she was the star witness in the pilots union's defense against the airline's suit alleging that a safety campaign is actually an illegal job action.
The airline is seeking an injunction to halt the "safety slowdown." Testimony will continue Monday.
"I was exercising my authority as captain to operate the aircraft safely," said Wells. "It was indeed my obligation, but I feel stronger about it than my job. Those passengers are friends of the family. (And) that's an aircraft the company owns."
Besides the passengers and the aircraft, Wells said, her concerns included the airplane's crew. "I felt especially that night that all those things were in danger," she said.
The case has become a cause célèbre because, on July 22, the U.S. Airline Pilots Association took out a full-page advertisement in USA Today. The ad described the incident and proclaimed that US Airways put "revenues first, safety second." The airline has called the ad's claims "outlandish, false and a disservice to (its) 32,000 hard-working employees," but has said little about specifics of the Wells case. In court on Friday, the airline's attorneys declined to cross-examine Wells.
On June 16, Wells was scheduled to fly an Airbus A330 with nearly 300 passengers. But the auxiliary power unit failed with the plane at the gate waiting to push back, she said. In an aircraft, the engines are the primary power source: the APU is a backup source of electrical power.
The APU's failure, Wells indicated, exposed a second failure in the "hot battery bus," another source of electrical backup. With both systems out, navigational screens in the cockpit went blank, the cockpit radio failed to operate and the cabin air conditioning shut off. The only way to communicate, Wells said, was to open the cockpit's sliding window and yell to ground workers.
Subsequently, two mechanics boarded the aircraft and restarted the APU. Since the airplane can fly without a functional APU, the mechanics wanted to put the failed device on a list of matters to be addressed at a future date so the flight could depart. But Wells, who during the afternoon had heard various reports of electrical system irregularities, no longer trusted the aircraft.
So Wells spoke by phone with the airline's chief pilot in Philadelphia. Wells said he kept asking whether she was refusing to fly. "I responded that I want to fly," she said. "I want an airplane that's good. I want this airplane fixed (or another airplane). He asked me five times, with me giving him the same answer." Given that the union's safety campaign was underway, the airline was apparently concerned that pilots were causing frequent delays by being excessively meticulous in pursuing safety concerns.
Wells returned to the cockpit. Mechanics had turned the APU off, so the cabin lacked air conditioning. A flight attendant said some passengers showed signs of heat stress, and Wells decided to let passengers disembark. By then, the departure had been delayed about five hours. As Wells waited in a secure area, two airline security officials approached, and told her "the ramp tower had said to remove me from the gate area. I said 'Why?' They did not know why."
It is extremely unusual for airline security to escort captains from the airport. "In all my years, I had never seen or heard anything like this," Wells said. "I got my bag and my first officer walked with me, and the two men followed us ten feet behind." The airline removed her from flying status, the prelude to a disciplinary action, on June 16, but then restored her on July 6, she said.
The airline has said only that Wells' removal "has nothing to do with safety," and has not commented specifically on the safety event. However, the Federal Aviation Administration has issued a statement, saying the APU shutdown in the aircraft "is a failure that pilots are well aware can happen and that they are trained to recognize. The battery apparently was depleted by attempts to restart the APU." The agency said aircraft often fly with inoperative APUs, without a safety risk, but "the captain simply chose to exercise her pilot-in-command authority of not accepting an aircraft." It said US Airways maintained the aircraft in accordance with regulations. The FAA did not mention the hot battery bus failure.
Subsequently, another crew also declined to fly the airplane, mechanics replaced an electronic computer board in the cockpit, the batteries were inspected by a third party, and the flight departed with a third crew the following morning.
In the Charlotte case, the airline is alleging that a union safety campaign is actually an illegal job action that violates the Railway Labor Act, because the two parties are still negotiating a contract and the union therefore does not have the right to change the status quo or take job actions.
The airline's witnesses Friday included an aviation statistician who said that since May 1, the airline has seen a vast increase in flight delays in Charlotte, where the union has its most loyal following. Airline executives said the delays have meant lost revenue and a decline in customer satisfaction. They said a predecessor union, the Air Line Pilots Association, sought to work together with the airline on safety and to separate safety from "political" and contract issues.
Following the hearing, the pilots' attorney, Brian O'Dwyer, told reporters: "We showed there has been a lack of a safety culture at US Airways, and pilots went out of their way to make sure each and every aircraft was safe." He said delays in Charlotte could be explained by weather, frequent thunder storms, congestion and runway construction.
In discussing flight 718, Wells was a convincing witness, but the airline's suit alleges that pilots violated the Railway Labor Act. Its attorneys will no doubt seek to keep the case focused on that issue.
US Airways captain describes airport eviction
TheStreet.com, Aug. 20, 2011
For the first time, a US Airways(LCC) captain has publicly described an incident where two security officials escorted her from the airport's secure area after she would not fly a plane from Philadelphia to Rome because of electrical system problems.
Captain Valerie Wells, a 30-year pilot, discussed the June 16 incident on Friday in U.S. District Court in Charlotte, where she was the star witness in the pilots union's defense against the airline's suit alleging that a safety campaign is actually an illegal job action.
The airline is seeking an injunction to halt the "safety slowdown." Testimony will continue Monday.
"I was exercising my authority as captain to operate the aircraft safely," said Wells. "It was indeed my obligation, but I feel stronger about it than my job. Those passengers are friends of the family. (And) that's an aircraft the company owns."
Besides the passengers and the aircraft, Wells said, her concerns included the airplane's crew. "I felt especially that night that all those things were in danger," she said.
The case has become a cause célèbre because, on July 22, the U.S. Airline Pilots Association took out a full-page advertisement in USA Today. The ad described the incident and proclaimed that US Airways put "revenues first, safety second." The airline has called the ad's claims "outlandish, false and a disservice to (its) 32,000 hard-working employees," but has said little about specifics of the Wells case. In court on Friday, the airline's attorneys declined to cross-examine Wells.
On June 16, Wells was scheduled to fly an Airbus A330 with nearly 300 passengers. But the auxiliary power unit failed with the plane at the gate waiting to push back, she said. In an aircraft, the engines are the primary power source: the APU is a backup source of electrical power.
The APU's failure, Wells indicated, exposed a second failure in the "hot battery bus," another source of electrical backup. With both systems out, navigational screens in the cockpit went blank, the cockpit radio failed to operate and the cabin air conditioning shut off. The only way to communicate, Wells said, was to open the cockpit's sliding window and yell to ground workers.
Subsequently, two mechanics boarded the aircraft and restarted the APU. Since the airplane can fly without a functional APU, the mechanics wanted to put the failed device on a list of matters to be addressed at a future date so the flight could depart. But Wells, who during the afternoon had heard various reports of electrical system irregularities, no longer trusted the aircraft.
So Wells spoke by phone with the airline's chief pilot in Philadelphia. Wells said he kept asking whether she was refusing to fly. "I responded that I want to fly," she said. "I want an airplane that's good. I want this airplane fixed (or another airplane). He asked me five times, with me giving him the same answer." Given that the union's safety campaign was underway, the airline was apparently concerned that pilots were causing frequent delays by being excessively meticulous in pursuing safety concerns.
Wells returned to the cockpit. Mechanics had turned the APU off, so the cabin lacked air conditioning. A flight attendant said some passengers showed signs of heat stress, and Wells decided to let passengers disembark. By then, the departure had been delayed about five hours. As Wells waited in a secure area, two airline security officials approached, and told her "the ramp tower had said to remove me from the gate area. I said 'Why?' They did not know why."
It is extremely unusual for airline security to escort captains from the airport. "In all my years, I had never seen or heard anything like this," Wells said. "I got my bag and my first officer walked with me, and the two men followed us ten feet behind." The airline removed her from flying status, the prelude to a disciplinary action, on June 16, but then restored her on July 6, she said.
The airline has said only that Wells' removal "has nothing to do with safety," and has not commented specifically on the safety event. However, the Federal Aviation Administration has issued a statement, saying the APU shutdown in the aircraft "is a failure that pilots are well aware can happen and that they are trained to recognize. The battery apparently was depleted by attempts to restart the APU." The agency said aircraft often fly with inoperative APUs, without a safety risk, but "the captain simply chose to exercise her pilot-in-command authority of not accepting an aircraft." It said US Airways maintained the aircraft in accordance with regulations. The FAA did not mention the hot battery bus failure.
Subsequently, another crew also declined to fly the airplane, mechanics replaced an electronic computer board in the cockpit, the batteries were inspected by a third party, and the flight departed with a third crew the following morning.
In the Charlotte case, the airline is alleging that a union safety campaign is actually an illegal job action that violates the Railway Labor Act, because the two parties are still negotiating a contract and the union therefore does not have the right to change the status quo or take job actions.
The airline's witnesses Friday included an aviation statistician who said that since May 1, the airline has seen a vast increase in flight delays in Charlotte, where the union has its most loyal following. Airline executives said the delays have meant lost revenue and a decline in customer satisfaction. They said a predecessor union, the Air Line Pilots Association, sought to work together with the airline on safety and to separate safety from "political" and contract issues.
Following the hearing, the pilots' attorney, Brian O'Dwyer, told reporters: "We showed there has been a lack of a safety culture at US Airways, and pilots went out of their way to make sure each and every aircraft was safe." He said delays in Charlotte could be explained by weather, frequent thunder storms, congestion and runway construction.
In discussing flight 718, Wells was a convincing witness, but the airline's suit alleges that pilots violated the Railway Labor Act. Its attorneys will no doubt seek to keep the case focused on that issue.
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Well's account on the face of it makes you sympathize with her decision. And you could definitely make the case that she has every right to decide if a discrepancy is OK for flight, even if the MEL ays so. An inop APU on an EOPS flight is certainly one I would have to consider as a No Go.
However, for the rest of the story - she depleted the battery doing multiple APU starts, ignoring the start cycle limitations and displaying a lack of systems knowledge. Then she compounded the situation by making two announcements, one on tHe aircraft and one at the gate after the aircraft was deplaned, telling the passengers that US Airways was unsafe and they wanted her to take an unsafe aircraft. Capt. Wells also told the passengers to refuse to board any other US Airways aircraft and to force the company to reaccomodate them on a different carrier. That was when the company had her leave the terminal.
However, for the rest of the story - she depleted the battery doing multiple APU starts, ignoring the start cycle limitations and displaying a lack of systems knowledge. Then she compounded the situation by making two announcements, one on tHe aircraft and one at the gate after the aircraft was deplaned, telling the passengers that US Airways was unsafe and they wanted her to take an unsafe aircraft. Capt. Wells also told the passengers to refuse to board any other US Airways aircraft and to force the company to reaccomodate them on a different carrier. That was when the company had her leave the terminal.