Near miss on JFK runway
From the folks at CBS news. Not sure of accuracy.
I am guessing the reporter means "hold short line" in second bullet.
- Federal authorities are investigating.
- According to the FAA, EgyptAir Flight 986 was instructed to stay behind a "hold line," 250 feet behind the runway.
- FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen says the EgyptAir pilot failed to stay behind the line, but didn't enter the runway.
- Bergen says the Lufthansa plane stopped "a considerable distance" from the EgyptAir jet.
- According to the FAA, EgyptAir Flight 986 was instructed to stay behind a "hold line," 250 feet behind the runway.
- FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen says the EgyptAir pilot failed to stay behind the line, but didn't enter the runway.
- Bergen says the Lufthansa plane stopped "a considerable distance" from the EgyptAir jet.
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When a ATC unit fell within my area of responsibility, its ATC recorders were in a locked room. Following any incident which may call for later investigation, an authorised personl would enter the room, remove and impound the media, and install fresh media. The impounded media were then kept under tight security. After all, they may provide the only hard evidence in a criminal case.
Are security and confidentiality no longer important?
Either this was a recording made by someone illegally (and partially?) recording ATC traffic, or it really is a recording released by ATC. I wonder which?
In either case, a prosecution should follow.
Are security and confidentiality no longer important?
Either this was a recording made by someone illegally (and partially?) recording ATC traffic, or it really is a recording released by ATC. I wonder which?
In either case, a prosecution should follow.
In my three years at JFK this scenario was always one of my worries. 22L and 22R are quite close together. 22L is the relatively short landing runway and 22R is the longer take-off runway. It is necessary to cross 22R after landing to get to any ramp.
If an aircraft landing on 22L is told "Hold short 22R Change Point 9" and then takes some time to change frequency and who's native language is not native New York (never mind English), then it was always a little bit of a worry to me if I was departing from 22R.
I cannot tell you the number of times that I have set off down 22R and watched the traffic coming off 22L and thought to myself "I hope they do exactly what they have been told to do otherwise it could just get a trifle messy".
If an aircraft landing on 22L is told "Hold short 22R Change Point 9" and then takes some time to change frequency and who's native language is not native New York (never mind English), then it was always a little bit of a worry to me if I was departing from 22R.
I cannot tell you the number of times that I have set off down 22R and watched the traffic coming off 22L and thought to myself "I hope they do exactly what they have been told to do otherwise it could just get a trifle messy".
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Capot,
It was a private recording, it is perfectly legal to listen to and record ATC in the US.
I agree the recording is missing parts of the conversation though.
It was a private recording, it is perfectly legal to listen to and record ATC in the US.
I agree the recording is missing parts of the conversation though.
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I used to fly into JFK in the 90s , and the place scared the hell out of me , even after years of flying 3rd world . I think we all expect the great airports of the Western world to be amazing places to fly into , easy even , but JFK was weird in its gung-ho attitude , typified by its handling of the Concorde . I had a BIG RA event there in our 747 with a Shorts in front of us in heavy rain , no attempt to give us speeds to fly or any info regarding types etc . While we were sorting out the G/A in our -200 we were treated to repeated bleatings about us not reporting it etc . Subsequent reports of near-misses with go-arounds from 22 just missing departures from 13 have never surprised me - only the fact that YET again they have got away with it.
Murphys Law rules.
Murphys Law rules.
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The ATC exchanges are recorded on LiveATC.net at ATC Audio Archives | LiveATC.net. Select either KJFK-Twr or KJFK-Gnd-Twr for Jun-20-2011 for 2230-2300Z time segment. Exchanges begin at about the 20:00 point into the half hour segment. While some bits may be missing, it appears that at about 20:45 Lufthansa is cleared onto the runway. At 22:40 an American flight is cleared onto the runway, and about five seconds later Lufthansa is order to cancel its takeoff.
Because Lufthansa must have started its takeoff roll at least 10 or 20 seconds before the American is cleared into position, it had to have gained substantial speed. This appears to be confirmed both by Lufthansa's subsequent concern over hot brakes, and based on comments made by several other aircraft on the frequency that what had just happened was a pretty heart-stopping show.
On the Gnd-Twr feed, there are a few interactions with Egyptair, but they are too garbled and cut-off for me to discern what directions it was given.
Because Lufthansa must have started its takeoff roll at least 10 or 20 seconds before the American is cleared into position, it had to have gained substantial speed. This appears to be confirmed both by Lufthansa's subsequent concern over hot brakes, and based on comments made by several other aircraft on the frequency that what had just happened was a pretty heart-stopping show.
On the Gnd-Twr feed, there are a few interactions with Egyptair, but they are too garbled and cut-off for me to discern what directions it was given.
Last edited by SeenItAll; 24th Jun 2011 at 17:10. Reason: Wrong time range originally entered
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Either this was a recording made by someone illegally (and partially?) recording ATC traffic, or it really is a recording released by ATC. I wonder which?
In either case, a prosecution should follow.
In either case, a prosecution should follow.
All Airport Feeds | Live Air Traffic Control Audio Feeds | LiveATC.net
Listening in is perfectly legal, and it's dead easy to record the conversations on your computer.
In theory in the US, you aren't supposed to pass on what you hear, but it is rarely enforced for radio transmissions that are available to the general public, so there won't be any prosecution. Recording private mobile or cordless phone conversations and passing them around would be more likely to get someone in trouble.
The laws about radios vary around Europe, but in most countries enthusiasts regularly use radio scanners to monitor ATC conversations without being bothered by the police. In countries that have more restrictive laws, like Austria and Italy, they just try to be a bit less obvious when they use them. No problem in countries like the Netherlands or the UK.
I might add that some enthusiasts even record ACARS transmissions, and there are similar enthusiast groups that monitor railway communications, as well as those for shipping.
Last edited by ST27; 22nd Jun 2011 at 18:29.
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It sounds more like he had just started to roll
... and got hot brakes?
... and got hot brakes?
I recall an incident years ago with a Wardair 747. They started the takeoff roll for an intercontinental flight, but aborted after some warnings came on. They then taxied to the gate for a quick maintenance fix, and then taxied to the runway for a second attempt. A number of tires blew on the second takeoff roll.
The investigation determined that because of a steady tailwind and slight downgrade to the departure runway, the crew had to ride the brakes while taxiing. The combination of two downhill trips to the active runway, plus the aborted takeoff was enough to overheat the brakes, even though the aircraft spent 30 to 45 minutes at the gate for the maintenance check. They changed their brake check procedures and extended cool-down times on heavies after that incident.
Last edited by ST27; 22nd Jun 2011 at 18:22.
I was interested in the RT phraseology "Cancel take-off" - is this standard ICAO phraseology?
I was under the impression that, in the UK, the phraseology was "Stop...." - any ATC care to clarify?
I was under the impression that, in the UK, the phraseology was "Stop...." - any ATC care to clarify?
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LiveATC.net recordings are often confusing, even when unedited, because the recording device is usually connected to a scanner rather than just a single frequency. The jumping around is tough to follow, and you tend you miss things (like, hopefully, Lufthansa's TO clearance).
Originally Posted by SeenItAll
The ATC exchanges are recorded on LiveATC.net at ATC Audio Archives | LiveATC.net. Select either KJFK-Twr or KJFK-Gnd-Twr for Jun-20-2011 for 2200-2230Z time segment.
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I know the CBS 'talking head' said they; "nearly avoided" ..........
That means they did not avoid, doesn't it?
That means they did not avoid, doesn't it?
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Yeah, I'm wondering that these ultra smart PPRuNE mods didn't change the thread title.
If, for example, a civilian airliner is subject to military attack, they are very fast on to delete the whole subject....
If, for example, a civilian airliner is subject to military attack, they are very fast on to delete the whole subject....