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Near miss on JFK runway

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Near miss on JFK runway

Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:11
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I hope so for luftys sake
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:17
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Lufty? I'm guessing this is spotter-speak for Lufthansa.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:45
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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When a ATC unit fell within my area of responsibility, its ATC recorders were in a locked room. Following any incident which may call for later investigation, an authorised personl would enter the room, remove and impound the media, and install fresh media. The impounded media were then kept under tight security. After all, they may provide the only hard evidence in a criminal case.

Are security and confidentiality no longer important?

Either this was a recording made by someone illegally (and partially?) recording ATC traffic, or it really is a recording released by ATC. I wonder which?

In either case, a prosecution should follow.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:48
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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In my three years at JFK this scenario was always one of my worries. 22L and 22R are quite close together. 22L is the relatively short landing runway and 22R is the longer take-off runway. It is necessary to cross 22R after landing to get to any ramp.

If an aircraft landing on 22L is told "Hold short 22R Change Point 9" and then takes some time to change frequency and who's native language is not native New York (never mind English), then it was always a little bit of a worry to me if I was departing from 22R.

I cannot tell you the number of times that I have set off down 22R and watched the traffic coming off 22L and thought to myself "I hope they do exactly what they have been told to do otherwise it could just get a trifle messy".
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:49
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Capot,

It was a private recording, it is perfectly legal to listen to and record ATC in the US.

I agree the recording is missing parts of the conversation though.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 18:01
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I used to fly into JFK in the 90s , and the place scared the hell out of me , even after years of flying 3rd world . I think we all expect the great airports of the Western world to be amazing places to fly into , easy even , but JFK was weird in its gung-ho attitude , typified by its handling of the Concorde . I had a BIG RA event there in our 747 with a Shorts in front of us in heavy rain , no attempt to give us speeds to fly or any info regarding types etc . While we were sorting out the G/A in our -200 we were treated to repeated bleatings about us not reporting it etc . Subsequent reports of near-misses with go-arounds from 22 just missing departures from 13 have never surprised me - only the fact that YET again they have got away with it.
Murphys Law rules.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 18:24
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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The ATC exchanges are recorded on LiveATC.net at ATC Audio Archives | LiveATC.net. Select either KJFK-Twr or KJFK-Gnd-Twr for Jun-20-2011 for 2230-2300Z time segment. Exchanges begin at about the 20:00 point into the half hour segment. While some bits may be missing, it appears that at about 20:45 Lufthansa is cleared onto the runway. At 22:40 an American flight is cleared onto the runway, and about five seconds later Lufthansa is order to cancel its takeoff.

Because Lufthansa must have started its takeoff roll at least 10 or 20 seconds before the American is cleared into position, it had to have gained substantial speed. This appears to be confirmed both by Lufthansa's subsequent concern over hot brakes, and based on comments made by several other aircraft on the frequency that what had just happened was a pretty heart-stopping show.

On the Gnd-Twr feed, there are a few interactions with Egyptair, but they are too garbled and cut-off for me to discern what directions it was given.

Last edited by SeenItAll; 24th Jun 2011 at 18:10. Reason: Wrong time range originally entered
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 18:25
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Either this was a recording made by someone illegally (and partially?) recording ATC traffic, or it really is a recording released by ATC. I wonder which?

In either case, a prosecution should follow.
Here is a link to over 500 live ATC feeds, provided by enthusiasts from around the world:

All Airport Feeds | Live Air Traffic Control Audio Feeds | LiveATC.net

Listening in is perfectly legal, and it's dead easy to record the conversations on your computer.

In theory in the US, you aren't supposed to pass on what you hear, but it is rarely enforced for radio transmissions that are available to the general public, so there won't be any prosecution. Recording private mobile or cordless phone conversations and passing them around would be more likely to get someone in trouble.

The laws about radios vary around Europe, but in most countries enthusiasts regularly use radio scanners to monitor ATC conversations without being bothered by the police. In countries that have more restrictive laws, like Austria and Italy, they just try to be a bit less obvious when they use them. No problem in countries like the Netherlands or the UK.

I might add that some enthusiasts even record ACARS transmissions, and there are similar enthusiast groups that monitor railway communications, as well as those for shipping.

Last edited by ST27; 22nd Jun 2011 at 19:29.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 18:28
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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It sounds more like he had just started to roll

... and got hot brakes?
What's LH's policy on aborted takeoffs? Do they require a mandatory brake inspection after any aborted takeoff, no matter what speed they attain? Do they have a minimum amount of time allowed before another takeoff attempt on a heavy? That might explain their actions after the incident.

I recall an incident years ago with a Wardair 747. They started the takeoff roll for an intercontinental flight, but aborted after some warnings came on. They then taxied to the gate for a quick maintenance fix, and then taxied to the runway for a second attempt. A number of tires blew on the second takeoff roll.

The investigation determined that because of a steady tailwind and slight downgrade to the departure runway, the crew had to ride the brakes while taxiing. The combination of two downhill trips to the active runway, plus the aborted takeoff was enough to overheat the brakes, even though the aircraft spent 30 to 45 minutes at the gate for the maintenance check. They changed their brake check procedures and extended cool-down times on heavies after that incident.

Last edited by ST27; 22nd Jun 2011 at 19:22.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 19:16
  #30 (permalink)  
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Not that it makes any difference to the situation but listening to the recording I think the controller said "Cancel take-off clearance", albeit tripping over the final word slightly.
 
Old 22nd Jun 2011, 19:16
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I was interested in the RT phraseology "Cancel take-off" - is this standard ICAO phraseology?

I was under the impression that, in the UK, the phraseology was "Stop...." - any ATC care to clarify?
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 19:24
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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I know the CBS 'talking head' said they; "nearly avoided" ..........

That means they did not avoid, doesn't it?

I'll get me coat.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 19:40
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Unless it's been recently changed, UK uses "Cancel take off" prior to a/c rolling and "Stop, etc" when it's moving.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 19:53
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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I agree, he is definitely saying, "Cancel takeoff clearance."
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 20:26
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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LiveATC.net recordings are often confusing, even when unedited, because the recording device is usually connected to a scanner rather than just a single frequency. The jumping around is tough to follow, and you tend you miss things (like, hopefully, Lufthansa's TO clearance).
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 20:37
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SeenItAll
The ATC exchanges are recorded on LiveATC.net at ATC Audio Archives | LiveATC.net. Select either KJFK-Twr or KJFK-Gnd-Twr for Jun-20-2011 for 2200-2230Z time segment.
Actually that needs to be the 2230-2300Z time segment.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 20:51
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I know the CBS 'talking head' said they; "nearly avoided" ..........

That means they did not avoid, doesn't it?
And a near miss should really be a near hit..... /George Carlin
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 20:57
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, I'm wondering that these ultra smart PPRuNe mods didn't change the thread title.

If, for example, a civilian airliner is subject to military attack, they are very fast on to delete the whole subject....
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 21:09
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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There's a thread open on the ATC Forum re this - but for info, from UK CAP493 Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1 =
Cancelling take-off :
1) (A/c identity) hold position, Cancel take-off I say again cancel takeoff acknowledge. Aircraft has not commenced take-off.

2) (A/c identity) stop immediately I say again (a/c identity) stop
immediately acknowledge. Aircraft commenced take-off.

Don't know what the USA equivalent should be.

Last edited by Eric T Cartman; 22nd Jun 2011 at 21:26.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 22:10
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Aborting T/O at about KIAS 100 in an A340 will give you about 100 minutes cooling time. Tried it myself.
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