Air India bashing - gone too far?
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-Placing a map or other obstruction over the window in line with the sun. 
And
-Completely covering the windows with newspaper to keep out the sun
And
-Completely covering the windows with newspaper to keep out the sun
Not to cover all the windscreens in the entire cockpit. I see no reason for that.
You can see and avoid in IMC. Up to 8 kilometers in fact.
Besides that, why are you looking out of the window instead of monitoring the flight instruments while IMC?
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Actually the 8 Km reference is the definition of IMC maximum visibility.
Anyway, at 900kts closure you're going to be pretty much head on and the chances of acquiring an aircraft are slim. However, you've still got about 20 seconds to react accordingly, if you can acquire the other aircraft, which is plenty of time, unless of course age has dulled your reactions.
What about traffic on a converging course? Or climbing and descending through your level? Not bothered by those?
At no point did I say I just sat there looking out of the window.
You're retired now but I'm sure you can remember such a thing called a scan? Or did you just sit there with you thumb up your bum glued to your AH? You had windows for a reason didn't you.
Anyway, at 900kts closure you're going to be pretty much head on and the chances of acquiring an aircraft are slim. However, you've still got about 20 seconds to react accordingly, if you can acquire the other aircraft, which is plenty of time, unless of course age has dulled your reactions.
What about traffic on a converging course? Or climbing and descending through your level? Not bothered by those?
Besides that, why are you looking out of the window instead of monitoring the flight instruments while IMC?
You're retired now but I'm sure you can remember such a thing called a scan? Or did you just sit there with you thumb up your bum glued to your AH? You had windows for a reason didn't you.
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Grimmrad - skin cancer is more likely from life style. UV's, not ionizing protons, creates skin cancer. UVA protective shirts, sunscreen, or at least long sleeve shirts, for skin cancer protection.
For the sake of argument and in the spirit of some of the views put forward here, it would appear equally acceptable to some people to fly in the cruise without navigation lights or anti collision lights ......
Jack
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Small part of the report as included in Air India's own ops circular.
13} Approved shades provided by the manufacturer should be used for protection against glare and paper etc should not be used to obstruct the windshield. It must be borne in mind that the other aircraft may have switched off its TCASfor some reason or may have an unserviceable TCASpreventing the display on your aircraft NO. In some cases when the sun is shining directly in your eyes a small paper may be used only in cruise, temporarily, just sufficient to block the suns disc. Appropriate sunglassesmay be worn asrequired to protect against glare.
14} Non flight related documents, magazines, newspapers, etc. must NOT be read whilst seated at your flight deck duty station. All documents required to be used in flight whilst seated at the dUty station have been reprinted to A8 size so that Flight Instruments, etc are not obstructed. No reading, paper work, etc. should be carried out when the other Pilot is not in his seat.
14} Non flight related documents, magazines, newspapers, etc. must NOT be read whilst seated at your flight deck duty station. All documents required to be used in flight whilst seated at the dUty station have been reprinted to A8 size so that Flight Instruments, etc are not obstructed. No reading, paper work, etc. should be carried out when the other Pilot is not in his seat.
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B747-400/2008/RED-07
B747-300/2008/RED-06
B777/2008/RED-12
A-310/2008/RED-07
B747-300/2008/RED-06
B777/2008/RED-12
A-310/2008/RED-07
Operations Department,
santa Cruz(East),
Mumbai 400029.
March 19,2008
To
ALL FLlOHT CREW
Sub: Flight operations support programme
In 2007 on our invitation, Boeing sent their senior Training captains to undertake observation flights on our aircraft as part of the Flight operations Support programme.
A number of observations made by these Training captains and also those noticed by our own Training captains are being disseminated by this Circular.
Aircraft Operations:
1} UseOf NoseWheel steering is not permitted during Takeoff Roll or Landing Roll. Rudder Pedal steering must be used for the entire Takeoff and Landing Roll for all Boeing types.
2) Whenever long over water flights or flights in non radar environment are carried out, Navigation position checks must be carried out. Lat and Long from Jeppesen Enroute Chartsshould be compared with Flight Planand FMS position.
3) Fuel Checksmust correlate to fuel remaining and fuel burn to preclude any fuel leak. Individual tank quantities also must be checked to preclude major imbalance.
4} FMSchangesand standard call outs must be made loudly and clearly and acknowledged by the other Pilot by the word "CHECK".
5} When carrying out auto coupled ILS approach - all available auto pilots must be used.
6) The Ground spoilers playa very important role in the landing
2) Whenever long over water flights or flights in non radar environment are carried out, Navigation position checks must be carried out. Lat and Long from Jeppesen Enroute Chartsshould be compared with Flight Planand FMS position.
3) Fuel Checksmust correlate to fuel remaining and fuel burn to preclude any fuel leak. Individual tank quantities also must be checked to preclude major imbalance.
4} FMSchangesand standard call outs must be made loudly and clearly and acknowledged by the other Pilot by the word "CHECK".
5} When carrying out auto coupled ILS approach - all available auto pilots must be used.
6) The Ground spoilers playa very important role in the landing
I rejected takeoff and their position must be monitored and called out. If not deployed automatically they must immediately be positioned manually.
7) During Takeoff and Climb and again for Descent and Approach PNFI PM ND must have Terrain Displayand PF ND should be on Weather Radar. During cruise both may be on wx, however, when flying over high ground one ND should be on Terrain for better situational awareness.
8} During taxiing appropriate speeds as mentioned in SOP must be used during turns to avoid nose wheel scrUbbing and undue stress on the under carriage. During straight taxi in dry condition and good Visibility taxi speed of 20 kts is considered appropriate.
In no case should taxi speed exceed 30 kts. Jet blast behind the A/c must be kept in mind before increasing thrust.
9) The After Landing Procedure and or Checklists should be done only when well clear of active R/W,taxi instructions are noted, understood and discussed.
10> Cost index determines the speed I Mach during all phasesof flight in the ECON mode.
Air India procedure is to use LRC/FixedMach during cruise. However, ECON mode climb and descent should be used and these speeds should not be modified unless required due to weather, etc.
contd .....2/-
7) During Takeoff and Climb and again for Descent and Approach PNFI PM ND must have Terrain Displayand PF ND should be on Weather Radar. During cruise both may be on wx, however, when flying over high ground one ND should be on Terrain for better situational awareness.
8} During taxiing appropriate speeds as mentioned in SOP must be used during turns to avoid nose wheel scrUbbing and undue stress on the under carriage. During straight taxi in dry condition and good Visibility taxi speed of 20 kts is considered appropriate.
In no case should taxi speed exceed 30 kts. Jet blast behind the A/c must be kept in mind before increasing thrust.
9) The After Landing Procedure and or Checklists should be done only when well clear of active R/W,taxi instructions are noted, understood and discussed.
10> Cost index determines the speed I Mach during all phasesof flight in the ECON mode.
Air India procedure is to use LRC/FixedMach during cruise. However, ECON mode climb and descent should be used and these speeds should not be modified unless required due to weather, etc.
contd .....2/-
.: 2 '.
Oeneral:
11} During External Checks High Visibility vests and ear defenders / ear plugs must be used irrespective of it being a local airport requirement or not, as these are meant for your protection.
12} cockpit entry door procedure once briefed before flight must be adhered to by each and every crew member throughout the flight.
13} Approved shades provided by the manufacturer should be used for protection against glare and paper etc should not be used to obstruct the windshield. It must be borne in mind that the other aircraft may have switched off its TCAS for some reason or may have an unserviceable TCAS preventing the display on your aircraft ND. In some cases
when the sun is shining directly in your eyes a small paper may be used only in cruise, temporarily, just sufficient to block the suns disc. Appropriate sunglassesmay be worn asrequired to protect against glare.
14} Non flight related documents, magazines, newspapers, etc. must NOTbe read whilst seated at your flight deck duty station. All documents required to be used in flight whilst seated at the dUty station have been reprinted to A8 size so that Flight Instruments, etc are not obstructed. No reading, paper work, etc. should be carried out when the other Pilot is not in his seat.
12} cockpit entry door procedure once briefed before flight must be adhered to by each and every crew member throughout the flight.
13} Approved shades provided by the manufacturer should be used for protection against glare and paper etc should not be used to obstruct the windshield. It must be borne in mind that the other aircraft may have switched off its TCAS for some reason or may have an unserviceable TCAS preventing the display on your aircraft ND. In some cases
when the sun is shining directly in your eyes a small paper may be used only in cruise, temporarily, just sufficient to block the suns disc. Appropriate sunglassesmay be worn asrequired to protect against glare.
14} Non flight related documents, magazines, newspapers, etc. must NOTbe read whilst seated at your flight deck duty station. All documents required to be used in flight whilst seated at the dUty station have been reprinted to A8 size so that Flight Instruments, etc are not obstructed. No reading, paper work, etc. should be carried out when the other Pilot is not in his seat.
15)
Dress & Uniform :
Inspite of detailed instructions on the subject in the operations Manual, it has been observed that dress and uniform regulations are not meticulously followed. Whilst in uniform pilots are minutely observed by the public and other staff and is commented upon. Crew turn out also displays the discipline, attention to detail and attitude of the Airline crew. Therefore, uniform and method of wearing it should be exemplary I.e.
shirt sleevesshould not be rolled up, top shirt button undone and tie loosened, cap in hand, etc. in the presence of public or when leaving the cockpit. Similarly, when visiting office premises, Simulator, traveling passenger by Air India, full / half sleeves shirt properly tucked in, trousers, socks and shoes must be worn (No sports shoes
shirt sleevesshould not be rolled up, top shirt button undone and tie loosened, cap in hand, etc. in the presence of public or when leaving the cockpit. Similarly, when visiting office premises, Simulator, traveling passenger by Air India, full / half sleeves shirt properly tucked in, trousers, socks and shoes must be worn (No sports shoes
& T-shirts). When traveling on International flights Jacket and tie must be worn. Similar attire must be worn when deputed to attend meetings / seminars with outside agencies. Whilst traveling on interline tickets (Ztickets, etc.l it must be borne in mind that a number of Airlines have a policy of not accepting / upgrading male staff who are not wearing a jacket and tie and female staff in equivalent formal / semi-formal attire. Jeans,T-shirtsand sports shoesare not permitted.
(
Capt. A. Almeida )
Addl. Oeneral Manager-Ops.(FIt.Ops.)
VKI )yotl
FOSPCircular
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misd-again: That was exactly my argument. The sun up there won't do it as it is filtered. If anything causes harm on pilots during cruise it's the cosmic rays. BTW, Melanoma is associated with UV, other forms of skin cancer not necessarily.
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Lookes
You find it very common in Asia that the Windows are covered with Papers and Maps to protect against everything from outside. In my opinion some of the "Pilots" are sitting far too low and hide under the glareshield.
Remember many years back the midair collission in Indian Airspace, maybe a good lookout would have prevented it, who knows. With the attitude "I am IFR" and I do not have to lookout, or I have TCAS and that alarms me, I am somehow shocked that there is no sensibility for wrongdoing..... or at least too complacent and that opens the gate for incidents and, God forbid, for accidents.
I am happy to be old fashioned and look outside what the world has to offer.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
Remember many years back the midair collission in Indian Airspace, maybe a good lookout would have prevented it, who knows. With the attitude "I am IFR" and I do not have to lookout, or I have TCAS and that alarms me, I am somehow shocked that there is no sensibility for wrongdoing..... or at least too complacent and that opens the gate for incidents and, God forbid, for accidents.
I am happy to be old fashioned and look outside what the world has to offer.
Fly safe and land happy
NG
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It is a while I made a contribution to PPrune.
It is 0300 local here.
Can't sleep.
Sleeping damage from 30 years of jetlagging around the globe for a major.
Retired 3 Years ago.
Here is a discussion You can't win from people who have no idea how it is to make a quick dash from Europe to the US and after 20 hours or so start the return flight. Already tired and drained because Your body it is already past midnight. MAYBE You were able to sleep one or two hours before calling. MAYBE.
Or a loooong flight into awakening Asia.
The next hours the fight is on.
Coffee.
Jokes.
Chief Pilot.
Solving world problems.
Chats with anything that pops up in the cockpit.
Then the horizon starts to glow, trouble brewing. The upcoming rays hack at Your last barriers. Your eyes hurt, You start to feel irritated, miserable.
These were the times I really HATED the sun, my job, everything.
And still HOURS away from homebase. Every minute seemed to take an hour to tick by.
I, like everyone else covered the sun spot with scrap paper. Not that You could see anything around it. At least You were not so blinded that You could still see a bit outside and Your eyes did not need seconds to adapt to see the instruments.
I never flew military planes but I could have written the nr 1 rule for fighter jocks, that is to attack with the sunrays looking INTO Your afterburner.
We don't live in a perfect world and airliners are not perfect, sunshades are even worse. Maybe in future we (read: my successors) will get intelligent windscreens that adapt to circumstances and block the sun.
For those SLF who read these kinda posts: You are doing this by Your own choice and don't start to complain if You read things You don't want to know about a service we provide for You.
Suppose there is a PPrune for topclass kitchen chefs and there was a post called: What do YOU do with a perfect cooked steak that slips out of Your frying pan on the ground
I don't wanna know.
Nor do I look into forums (if there are any) for heart surgeons.
As with many other professions there are areas only insiders can understand.
But be sure all pilots want to reach their retirement age in 1 piece, that is about the best insurance You can get for a safe flight, but sometimes we have to make the best choice out of a lot bad options.
Putting that decision under a newspaper's microscope is not playing level with pilots.
The into-sun morning flights are the ones I try to remember whenever I have a bout of longing back for my previous life. If it is not strong enough I sit up and look for 10 minutes straight into my desktop reading light, like I do now. That solves all these stupid thoughts...
Hmm, is that me who's snoring? 03.50 now....
It is 0300 local here.
Can't sleep.
Sleeping damage from 30 years of jetlagging around the globe for a major.
Retired 3 Years ago.
Here is a discussion You can't win from people who have no idea how it is to make a quick dash from Europe to the US and after 20 hours or so start the return flight. Already tired and drained because Your body it is already past midnight. MAYBE You were able to sleep one or two hours before calling. MAYBE.
Or a loooong flight into awakening Asia.
The next hours the fight is on.
Coffee.
Jokes.
Chief Pilot.
Solving world problems.
Chats with anything that pops up in the cockpit.
Then the horizon starts to glow, trouble brewing. The upcoming rays hack at Your last barriers. Your eyes hurt, You start to feel irritated, miserable.
These were the times I really HATED the sun, my job, everything.
And still HOURS away from homebase. Every minute seemed to take an hour to tick by.
I, like everyone else covered the sun spot with scrap paper. Not that You could see anything around it. At least You were not so blinded that You could still see a bit outside and Your eyes did not need seconds to adapt to see the instruments.
I never flew military planes but I could have written the nr 1 rule for fighter jocks, that is to attack with the sunrays looking INTO Your afterburner.
We don't live in a perfect world and airliners are not perfect, sunshades are even worse. Maybe in future we (read: my successors) will get intelligent windscreens that adapt to circumstances and block the sun.
For those SLF who read these kinda posts: You are doing this by Your own choice and don't start to complain if You read things You don't want to know about a service we provide for You.
Suppose there is a PPrune for topclass kitchen chefs and there was a post called: What do YOU do with a perfect cooked steak that slips out of Your frying pan on the ground
I don't wanna know.
Nor do I look into forums (if there are any) for heart surgeons.
As with many other professions there are areas only insiders can understand.
But be sure all pilots want to reach their retirement age in 1 piece, that is about the best insurance You can get for a safe flight, but sometimes we have to make the best choice out of a lot bad options.
Putting that decision under a newspaper's microscope is not playing level with pilots.
The into-sun morning flights are the ones I try to remember whenever I have a bout of longing back for my previous life. If it is not strong enough I sit up and look for 10 minutes straight into my desktop reading light, like I do now. That solves all these stupid thoughts...
Hmm, is that me who's snoring? 03.50 now....
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I don't have a problem with covering up the #2 or #3 windows in (Oceanic/Polar or otherwise Remote) cruise, but I wouldn't cover the #1 windows unless the plane is parked.
Man, they wouldn't like me at all.
14} Non flight related documents, magazines, newspapers, etc. must NOT be read whilst seated at your flight deck duty station.
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At the end of the day the regs are clear. See and avoid is the legal method to avoid mid-air collisions.
How can you even attempt that with all windows covered up?
Whilst not the only airline guilty of this violation, it doesn't make it acceptable.
Especially in the crowded skies of India.
How can you even attempt that with all windows covered up?
Whilst not the only airline guilty of this violation, it doesn't make it acceptable.
Especially in the crowded skies of India.
I love my job, but skin cancer was not part of my deal.
Interesting perspective but....
Ticked that box.
Also ticked the tinnitus - one ear.
Malaria -twice.
Salmonella many times.
Lung infection - probably TB.
Solar radiation on polar route - lost two colleagues from brain cancer.
Migraine was normal on the very long trans-atlantic flights.
Imodium was standard operating equipment.
Venereal disease was the only one down to personnel choice
Interesting perspective but....
Ticked that box.
Also ticked the tinnitus - one ear.
Malaria -twice.
Salmonella many times.
Lung infection - probably TB.
Solar radiation on polar route - lost two colleagues from brain cancer.
Migraine was normal on the very long trans-atlantic flights.
Imodium was standard operating equipment.
Venereal disease was the only one down to personnel choice
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Sonny Hammond:
Just to clear things up, traffic avoidance maneuvers or Resolution Advisories are carried out solely on the basis of looking at your Primary flight display and following the Green band on your V/S indicator. If you make the mistake of looking outside at that point, you're all toast. A traffic advisory which signifies potentially conflicting a/c in your vicinity requires you to look outside and visually locate the traffic, but does not require you to take any evasive action.
Just to clear things up, traffic avoidance maneuvers or Resolution Advisories are carried out solely on the basis of looking at your Primary flight display and following the Green band on your V/S indicator. If you make the mistake of looking outside at that point, you're all toast. A traffic advisory which signifies potentially conflicting a/c in your vicinity requires you to look outside and visually locate the traffic, but does not require you to take any evasive action.
Friend of mine was undergoing a simulator assessment on the A320 before being formally inducted into an Indonesian LLC based at Jakarta. The simulator view was set for CAVOK and the Indonesian check pilot gave him take off clearance and make left turn. The pilot under test took off and instinctively glanced over his left shoulder just before commencing the left turn. The instructor `froze` the simulator and in a belligerent manner demanded why the pilot had looked outside before the turn.
The pilot said as it was a visual departure he instinctively looked outside to check for visual traffic before turning.
The instructor replied that "you never look outside when flying the Airbus - you trust the TCAS".
Oh yeah? But of course that's Indonesia...
The pilot said as it was a visual departure he instinctively looked outside to check for visual traffic before turning.
The instructor replied that "you never look outside when flying the Airbus - you trust the TCAS".
Oh yeah? But of course that's Indonesia...
CBs
Whilst traffic avoidance is important of much more importance is CB avoidance esp since the tops can be dry and offer few radar returns. At night even when there is a little ambient light I look out as well as dipping the wx radar to look at the bottom levels of the clouds. IMHO completely covering the windows is extremely foolish.
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If you make the mistake of looking outside at that point, you're all toast
So, we have two pilots. One is flying the aircraft in response to the RA. What do you think the other one is doing, specifically?
I mean, if it's not too much bother maybe you could take a look outside or are you happy to just be a useless passenger at this point?!
Take the case, again, of Uberlingen. Maybe a turn away from the threat would have been possible if visual contact had been established. Or, if you could see that the evasive maneuver wasn't working then you could do something about it. Blindly following your TCAS isn't necessarily the best thing to do.
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Blind pew,
I had two Euro sized skin parts removed, basal cell carcinoma. One on my temple.
My then excellent vision lost quite a few points when using pills against malaria, I forgot the name. Later this side effect (and some more) caused a swap in the company to some other brand.
The last few years of my career I was diagnosed with atrium fibrillation. No one in my whole family has heart problems.
My disturbed sleeping pattern.
For the rest Your list looks quite the same as mine, slips in New Delhi were crews seldom without anyone losing it to the "Delli Belli" as we called it. Imodium by the truckload.
OK, nearly every job has its effects on health, but ours is sometimes hidden (yet). Airlines are not too cooperative to comply with in depth studies.
As far as I know studies into the risk of radiation into cockpits is difficult as not all agree on what rays and to what level are considered dangerous over accumulated exposure.
There might come a day all medical risks of flying in our cockpits will be well documented, but airlines will NOT be amused. That's for sure.
But requiring people to look straight into a rising sun w/o letting them protect their eyes is like ordering people to drive with max headlights because the oncoming driver should be able to deal with that.
Get a life guys or keep on staring at the books that know it all soooo well.
I had two Euro sized skin parts removed, basal cell carcinoma. One on my temple.
My then excellent vision lost quite a few points when using pills against malaria, I forgot the name. Later this side effect (and some more) caused a swap in the company to some other brand.
The last few years of my career I was diagnosed with atrium fibrillation. No one in my whole family has heart problems.
My disturbed sleeping pattern.
For the rest Your list looks quite the same as mine, slips in New Delhi were crews seldom without anyone losing it to the "Delli Belli" as we called it. Imodium by the truckload.
OK, nearly every job has its effects on health, but ours is sometimes hidden (yet). Airlines are not too cooperative to comply with in depth studies.
As far as I know studies into the risk of radiation into cockpits is difficult as not all agree on what rays and to what level are considered dangerous over accumulated exposure.
There might come a day all medical risks of flying in our cockpits will be well documented, but airlines will NOT be amused. That's for sure.
But requiring people to look straight into a rising sun w/o letting them protect their eyes is like ordering people to drive with max headlights because the oncoming driver should be able to deal with that.
Get a life guys or keep on staring at the books that know it all soooo well.
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Double Back great post i totally relate to those mornings when the sun just " scorch " your eyes as if acid was splashed directly into them, for those supermen who thinks at flight levels if another aircraft is coming directly at you at a closing rate of over 1900km/hr and you can avoid it, especially when the sun is in your eyes even with the best sunglasses you really are living in coo coo land.
Spandex - what a load of tripe -
since you brought up uberlingen one of the recommendations out of that very unfortunate accident 
is to always trust your TCAS, if both planes did, that day would not be another satistic.
i totally relate to those mornings when the sun just " scorch " your eyes as if acid was splashed directly into them, for those supermen who thinks at flight levels if another aircraft is coming directly at you at a closing rate of over 1900km/hr and you can avoid it, especially when the sun is in your eyes even with the best sunglasses you really are living in coo coo land.Spandex - what a load of tripe -
since you brought up uberlingen one of the recommendations out of that very unfortunate accident is to always trust your TCAS, if both planes did, that day would not be another satistic.
Last edited by 320busdriver; 27th May 2011 at 12:39.