American MD-83 LGA wing tip contact May 5, 2011

[misd-agin]

TACA's TGU crash had nothing to do with it being an Airbus. If you land far enough down any runway, in any aircraft, you will go off the far end of the runway.

[bubbers44]

MA, I agree it probably wasn't airplane related but it reminded me of the Sao Paulo crash a few years ago. They couldn't manually deploy spoilers or the operative reverser because the computer overrode the pilots inputs and they went off the end of the runway too. One reverser was inop and one thrust reverser wasn't in idle detent. It didn't allow them to select speed brakes like Boeing does. We could always manually extend speed brakes, no matter what the computer wanted.

The TGU accident was pilot error, I agree. I only had one of 600 approaches that I couldn't overide the computer and that was a simple reverser problem that we were able to easily overide with a bit more braking. Taca almost closed the airport forever but some of us encouraged it to stay open because the alternate airport was an AFB a long ways away and very inconvenient.

[bubbers44]

RIS, Yes every day, SOP's have hampered our safety for a long time for a real pilot. I am retired now so can admit sop's are ways to get mediocre pilots safe enough to not kill anybody. It doesn't work well if something out of the ordinary happens. But that is what the company wants.

[ironbutt57]

Ahh back in a Boeing, maybe..but the 757 was a handful in gusty crosswinds, stop to stop on the ailerons on more than one occasion..

[stilton]

Agree, key to strong / gusty crosswinds in the 757 is to use F25.


Makes for a far easier handling Aircraft.

[bubbers44]

I flew it for years and never hit the stops in lots of turbulence. Are you perhaps military?

[bubbers44]

I know I won't get a response but I know what the answer would be. Nobody I have flown with has ever hit the stops of our 757 ever. It is such an easy and great airplane to fly. It was my favorite. I totally trusted it because it had so much performance and it would never bite you. It would do anything you asked of it and more.

[PA38-Pilot]

Bubbers, get your facts straight. The TGU accident had nothing to do with it being an A320, but due to pilot error and wrong decision making. Same with the A320 accident in Congonhas. Try stopping an aircraft with full climb power on one engine... be it a Boeing, Airbus, MD, Fokker, or whatever... result would've been the same.

Also, I thought this was about the AA md80 at LGA, and not an A vs B thread?

[stilton]

I've never hit the stops either B44 but did you fly the 727 ?


Now that was a good handling Aircraft, as is the 767.


The 757, not so much.

[pattern_is_full]

Ahh, PPruNe - only here could a McDonnell-Douglas incident lead to an Airbus-Boeing debate....

(The 757) would do anything you asked of it and more.

Except stop on a snowy runway in KJAC, it would seem.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...e-wyoming.html

(I know, I know: we're still waiting on that one. I like the 75 myself, but if KJAC had a drop-off like TEGU....)

[twochai]

Has there been a case in the recent past where SOP's were of little help and good aviation knowledge like airmanship saved the day?

The obvious answer is that thousands of flights occur every day where good aviation knowledge and airmanship save the day - you just don't read about many of them, for very good reason!

[bubbers44]

Stilton, yes I flew the 727 into TGU in Honduras and loved it. It didn't climb worth a damn but it was fast and you had an extra pilot to do all the hard stuff like preflights and ATIS.

I think I have already stated the Sao Paulo and Honduras accidents were pilot error in their Airbuses. It is just that Boeing gives you more manual control if the computer disagrees with you. Not fully retarding a throttle will allow you to use spoilers manually. Airbus won't. I think this thread on crosswind landings applies to all planes, not just MD. The pilots would have probably got the wingtips no matter what they were flying given the same circumstances. The MD80 wasn't any harder to land than any other aircraft in a crosswind. I remember one approach when I was flying an MD80 as FO landing at LAS with a 30 knot direct crosswind from the right putting the nose over the taxiway light so when I kicked it out we could touch down on the centerline. Retract the wingtip landing lights before touchdown if you think it will be close.

I think xwind landing results are 90% pilot technique. I have seen the full spectrum. Poor technique can result in unnecessary damage. Overcontrolling usually is the problem in a bad xwind landing.

[SKS777FLYER]

Ironbutt57:

Ahh back in a Boeing, maybe..but the 757 was a handful in gusty crosswinds, stop to stop on the ailerons on more than one occasion..

Agree with Stilton, flaps 25 for me it was on most landings in the wind. Flew the 757 more than 10,000 hours with numerous landings in TGU and even more at SJO, never ONCE hit the stops with the ailerons. Sounds like maybe you once flew the mighty B52. Those B52 guys could fly an ILS in absolutely calm air and hamfist the ailerons and elevator all the way to landing.

[bubbers44]

Funny you should mention Buff,











Funny you singled out the Buff, B52 pilots as the worst for PIO's. Sounds like you flew with the same MIA FO I did. He got so wild goinging into SJO with a quartering tailwind one day even the tower commented on it.

[neilki]

@Bubbers44

IIRC QF managed to turn a 744 into a golf buggy at BKK a few years back because of (primarily) a breakdown in CRM resulting in 3 idle engines and one left at TOGA.. when they bite my friend, it doesn't matter if their teeth are cut in Toulouse or Seattle.
Qantas Flight 1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Twin2040]

Flew the 727, 757 and 767 and now on MD 80 - agree on 727 easy and precise to control - I remember it, as you could almost fly it down to the flare and still you could control it and work with the aircraft all the way to touchdown - 757 .... fab fab - lots of power and superb looks but could be a handfull in max X-wind - 767 loved it - now on the MD, best aircraft I have ever flown when it comes to handflying - simple and sturdy - my THING is you just have to feel it, when it comes to roll - compensate before and not after - its to slow when it comes to roll - Twin 2040

[BigFootDriver]

Like bubbers, I've flown both the 727 and 757 into TGu with over 210 landings as both PIC and as check airman.

It can get very sporty there in May when dry gusty winds blow from the northeast.

Twice I can recall hitting the aileron stops on the 757 below 40 feet.

Sporty. Loved every minute of it!

BFD

[bubbers44]

BFD, had a 30 knot and gusting wind out of the NE one day and told a guy that was a checkairman and wanted to get qualified for TGU the updraft going up the slope on short final was going to be like an elevator shaft of vertical air so told him we would probably get a 20 knot increase trying to stay in the groove to our touchdown zone. We got the 20 knot increase at about 100 ft and reduced power as much as we could and still be spooled up, went to idle crossing the fence and still touched down at ref +10. Since our ground speed was not high we didn't need much runway to stop but he never came back. I loved the place because it reminded me of my first crop dusting job. It also was like my first airline job that didn't have a lot of sop's.
You just get the job done safely.

[misd-agin]

Limited TGU experience.... it's interesting flying. You're authorized to turn off the EGPWS because it goes off numerous times and is a general nuisance vs. an aid. It's look outside, fly the airplane, don't get too low(you're already below 100' a long way from the runway), while listening to the FO's inputs on sink rate/airspeed. And gusty winds can require an early power reduction....but you're already in ground effect when you're about a mile from the runway.

Interesting stuff.

[alejandro]

MD safety

I had been flying in MEX DFW MD flights
Excelent high temp's high alt's (7340') 30 cels dg.Old airplanes.Mount area.
Good to sleep during Take off. (smoke humor) Nice, be unstressed

Old Capt's..... from where? America? I think not,(MD????)

Sorry I feel scarred......

Best regards
AEC