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Use of low time pilots slammed

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Use of low time pilots slammed

Old 6th May 2011, 20:12
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Use of low time pilots slammed

This is about Jetstar operations across the Tasman and within Godzone. What about those start ups in the subcontinent and SEA?

Jetstar pilot experience questioned - Totaltravel
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Old 6th May 2011, 20:15
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Jetstar and low time pilots

This article just appeared in yahoo news ;

Budget airline Jetstar has come under fire across the Tasman for letting trainee pilots with as little as 200 hours fly its A320s.
Sydney newspaper Daily Telegraph reported the pilots are flying the passenger services between Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.
Australian and International Pilots Association vice-president Richard Woodward said: "Two hundred hours is less experience than the average P-plater on our roads has."
According to the Telegraph pilots are employed on part-time contracts with a guaranteed annual salary of AUD$57,600 (NZ$78,183) and do not get a pay increase for six years.
They have to pay the airline AUD10,500 (NZ$14,253) a year for on-the-job training. And if they resign before completing six years of service they have to cough up almost as much.
Most cannot legally fly to New Zealand as law here demands commercial pilots have 500 hours in their log books.
The association has long urged a review of Australian pilot training and experience minimums.
The US Government recently passed legislation to ensure all pilots on commercial airliners have a minimum of 1500 hours.
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Old 6th May 2011, 22:16
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Jetstar - The Cancer of Aviation in the Asia/Pacific area assisted by their northern hemispehere partners Oxford and CTC.

Take a look here, they have no intention of stopping this modern day slavery. Cadets are bonded for six years on a salary well below industry norms with a very large debt for their initial training plus having to pay Jetstar a very significant portion of their meagre salary to pay for their Jetstar training.

NZ's top pilot training company ramps up national recruiting drive | infonews.co.nz New Zealand's local news community

However I suspect like lambs to the slaughter there will be plenty of uninformed young people who will unwittingly sell their own souls and those of their parents in the pursuit of this folly. In the process dragging the career of an airline pilot down to the level below that of an unskilled worker.

By the way the headline is misleading, the bit about NZ's top pilot training company is a load of .
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Old 6th May 2011, 22:23
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However I suspect like lambs to the slaughter there will be plenty of uninformed young people who will unwittingly sell their own souls and those of their parents in the pursuit of this folly. In the process dragging the career of an airline pilot down to the level below that of an unskilled worker
There are many youngsters in other professions who start their careers with much higher debt loads than pilots, e.g. Doctors, particularly specialists. Why the whining from the pilot community??
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Old 6th May 2011, 22:32
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Twochai,

You miss the point, it not the level of debt that's the big issue here, it's the terms and conditions these guys and girls are being employed under. Terms and conditions that are well below the industry norm, terms and conditions which may severley impact their future career advancement and earning capabilities. Terms and conditions that do not reflect the value of the job.

The large debt only becomes an issue because of the very poor terms and conditions that Jetstar employ the cadets under.
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Old 6th May 2011, 22:35
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Most doctors have a debt that peaks at around £60k. They are paid well though.

Most new pilots now have a debt around £110k. They are often not even offered a full time job, just a rolling self-employed contractors position.
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Old 6th May 2011, 22:38
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Two Chai I don't know what industry you you work in however it is obvious that you don't work in the aviation industry otherwise you wouldn't have made the statement you did.

Have you taken a look at some of the threads on here re the UK cadets trained by the likes of CTC and Oxford? Many of these guys and girls are struggling in some cases having to declare bankruptcy. This is where the Jetstar cadet scheme is leading.
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Old 7th May 2011, 02:23
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Many of these guys and girls are struggling in some cases having to declare bankruptcy. This is where the Jetstar cadet scheme is leading.
I would give full support of laws that would prohibit pilots entering these scams from being able to declare bankruptcy. Allowing bankruptcy when someone takes on this debtload with reckless abandon despite all the information available to them in respect to current conditions, is allowing them an easy way out. Make them pay off that debt even if it is burdon on their lifestyle till the day they die...dont reward stupidity
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Old 7th May 2011, 02:45
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Anyone holding a gun the heads of those who pay to play or their parents?

All they have to do is say "NO".

With that being said they'll get exactly what they pay for... exploitation.
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Old 7th May 2011, 03:11
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SLFs...is it better to travel on an airline with pilots with only 200+ hours or fly on one with fake pilots onboard? No brainer?
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Old 7th May 2011, 03:25
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SLFs...is it better to travel on an airline with pilots with only 200+ hours or fly on one with fake pilots onboard? No brainer?
Thats the dumbest comparison I have ever heard! BUT, There are 2 answers to that:

1. Why should a consumer ever have to make that choice between 2 evils?
2. I wouldnt fly on either!!
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Old 7th May 2011, 03:37
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27/09

Two Chai I don't know what industry you you work in however it is obvious that you don't work in the aviation industry otherwise you wouldn't have made the statement you did.
Since you ask, I spent 50 years in the industry until retirement, initially as a pilot (9,000+ hours with self funded training). My medical is still current.

No complaints whatsoever, an entirely satisfying career. Thankfully, I never found myself in a union.
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Old 7th May 2011, 04:34
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Jutsagigalo77

Allowing bankruptcy when someone takes on this debtload with reckless abandon despite all the information available to them in respect to current conditions, is allowing them an easy way out.
I can't help but agree, however I'm not sure they get the full facts until it's too late. It a bit of you don't know what you don't know and the sales pitch from some of the flight schools is very slick and convincing.

I like your answer to the SLF statement.


Twochai

Congratulations on your good health annd your 50 years of satisfaction in the aviation industry. You have been involved during what might be described as the golden years as things have/are changing especially with these cadet scams. From what you have written it would seem that you are out of touch with the current situation in some parts of the world.
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Old 7th May 2011, 05:31
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I can't help but agree, however I'm not sure they get the full facts until it's too late. It a bit of you don't know what you don't know and the sales pitch from some of the flight schools is very slick and convincing.
With the internet and endless opportunities to meet pilots online and/or at airports etc, I really do not think there is an excuse for lack of facts. Its like me coming to the UK and driving on the right (------>) side of the road because no one held my hand all the way to the left side of the road. There are enough websites and people to ask which side of the road you crazy people drive on. I really do not believe that ignorance is a defence in these scams.
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Old 7th May 2011, 05:54
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The sales pitch is very convincing and unless you had any suspicions why would you go looking for other info. After all these guys have all the glib answers, there's more in what they infer and don't say than in what they actually say.

It's easy for us to say that you can easily find out. We know where to go and ask, but a lot of these people don't have a clue where to start and the infomation provided by these flight schools is the only info thay have. After all everyone knows that all pilots have a secure job with good perks and earn copious amounts of money. Isn't that right? Ask your non pilot friends? It won't take long to pay back that huge loan.

Yes I know there are some who have rose tinted glasses and will not believe reality but that doesn't apply to everyone.
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Old 7th May 2011, 06:05
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personally,

i don't think the issue is with the 200+ hours flying A320... the issue here is the willingness of these pilots accepting the substandard offer.

200+ hours on a right hand seat in a shiny jet is not very uncommon, in fact in a certain airline, you have guys with less than 500hours total time flying on a right hand seat of a Triple Seven, few went to the B744

a guy with 1500 hours on a C172 may be lot better than a young chap with 200 odd hours on a C172, that is when you compare them in a C172.

But when you put both of them in a A320 cockpit, i believe they are some differences between the 2, but how big are the differences? is it that significant?
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Old 7th May 2011, 06:08
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-put yourself in the position of a father. Your son (or your daughter) can now fly an airbus 320 in less than 2 years. Is that not wonderful? wooow!!!!

you can not expect parents to know the rules, T and C,... most parents I know have never flown a plane in their life.

These ponzi shemes(or scam/shemes, call them what you want) are just the carrot to attract more wanabes to "sell" them a MPL that nobody cares except a few crooks like easyjet/CTC,....

who to blame? who set this MPL? yes there is a part of parents' responsibility, but this training should be highly regulated, and not regulated by money only.

In a matter of fact, the MPL is totally unappropriated with the actual crisis as there are more downsides than upsides.(can not fly single pilot a/c,..)


I am surprised to see that in the Stets they have increased their minimum to 1500h, when in europe, they are decreasing the number of hours (70h in a real plane).

How PAX will react when they will learn that the pilot in front of the A319 can not even fly a 2 passengers Piper by himself? Has no flight experience, no navigation experience,..."

MPL="ground, euh,easyjet 333, euh,request permission for euh, standby, euh, OK, euh, permission for push back, euh, Over!"
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Old 7th May 2011, 06:12
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Most cannot legally fly to New Zealand as law here demands commercial pilots have 500 hours in their log books.
?????

From the NZ CAA Rule Pt. 61 ( Licences and Ratings )

61.203 Eligibility requirements
To be eligible for a commercial pilot licence, a person mustó
.............

(4) have the following minimum general flight time experience as a
pilot comprising specific flight experience that is acceptable to
the Director for the appropriate category of aircraft:
(i) in the case of an aeroplane, 200 hours or, if undertaking a
course of approved training, 150 hours:
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Old 7th May 2011, 06:25
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ExSp33db1rd
I could be wrong but there's most likely a ATPL rating after the basic commercial. The wording of the above statement (commercial) is sloppy.
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Old 7th May 2011, 06:30
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Are we supposed to be shocked by this? Jetscar is far from the only company hiring these 200 wonders. Lifetime bond? Why not. Pay to sit in the seat? Sure.

I WOULD DO ANYTHING TO FLY A SHINY JET.
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