Preliminary Report of Boeing 747-400F Fatal Accident, Dubai -3Sep10
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The problem with that is that Lithium batteries are shipped with partial charge because if they are left uncharged the consequent low voltage state leads to internal damage which renders them useless in service. It's the same reason that phones and other devices that use Li batteries switch off when only just below the nominal 3.6/3.7V cell voltage, if you let them drop to below 3.0V then they accumulate damage and the service life is massively reduced.
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Only the sextant port?
Re' Smoke Removal, Sextant Port, Ovhd Escape Hatch, proposed Smoke-Chute :
GCAA's Preliminary Rpt, Pg11, Note 9:
GCAA's Preliminary Rpt, Pg11, Note 9:
Smoke Evacuation Handle -- a handle immediately aft of the P5 overhead panel that when pulled opens a circular, manually displaced vent in the overhead fuselage section of the flight deck.
Hmmm -- so that "circular ... vent" that the report mentioned could NOT be the Overhead Escape Hatch [not circular]??? -- In old military transports, a pilot could pull such a handle to release the Overhead Escape Hatch.
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Off-airport landing during inflight fire
"... evaluating ... fires ... get on the ground anywhere fast ..."
Such an EMERGENCY LANDING, off-airport, has been accomplished during inflight fires -- just not recently. Until the fires aboard the new DC-6 (4Nov47 & 11Nov47), transport aircraft had deploy-able barium nitrate Landing Flare meant as a safety feature for emergency night landing [another hazardous engineered safety feature].
Recall that the Boeing-PIC, while flying over the North Cascades, elected to attempt an emergency landing near Oso -- rather than attempt to get back to BFI:19Oct59 B707-22 / N7071 upset, wing/fuel/structure fire, of a Boeing Trainer. During crew training for Braniff pilots, while practicing dutch roll recoveries, the yaw-roll upset severed three of its engines. An ensuing wing-fire consumed wing structure, ongoing fire motivated pilots to attempt a crash landing in the North Fork of the Stillaguamish River (near Oso northeast of Seattle) at 1620 PST. Four crew-observers survived by taking ditching stations in the aft cabin (three operating crew were killed). One of those observer/survivors was a Boeing pilot (Bill Allsopp).
TWA Lockheed Constellation NC86513 Star of Lisbon / 11Jul46, near Reading, PA. Sixteen minutes after T/O (during practice engine-out ops) an F/E smelled odor of burning insulation; when he opened cockpit-bulkhead Door to cabin blast of heat and dense black smoke poured into cockpit. Smoke in cockpit inhibited pilots Nilsen and Brown from seeing panel. Cockpit crew-hatch was opened to clear air, but this only drew more smoke into cockpit. Capt-IP Brown opened right sliding window; Brown put head out window and flew aircraft to emergency landing (smoke created danger of losing control). Landed 2 miles NE of airport, skidded 1000' across hay field. Tanks ruptured, fuel fire. IP-PIC RF Brown survived (burned, amputee), five other pilots/FEs died inside the burning wreck….
NW Flt 1-11 / 14Jul60 DC-7C N292 ditched 5 miles east of Polillo Island, P.I. (Pacific), at 0430 Manila time [night]. Departed Okinawa at 1712 hrs GMT enroute Manila. … magnesium fire; descended through cloud with moderate rain (night), rain increased intensity of Magnesium fire on #2 Eng Nose Case; fire in left wing -- structural failure feared \\ ditched at 2030z, 67 nm NE of Manila (five miles from shore) sob = 7 crew and 51 pax (1 fatality, 44 injured)….
Varig 820 / 11Jul73 B707-345C PP-VJZ inflight cabin fire, crash landed short of Paris/Orly. Killed: 7 crew + 116 pax. Survivors: 10 crew + 1 pax.
From Rio de Janeiro to Paris, Cruised FL330/370/390 (10 hours). Descended toward Paris … At 1358:20 hrs pilots radioed "... problem with fire on board." Pilots requested "emergency descent". … 10 nm out, pilots reported "total fire" … Last radio transmission at 1401:10 hrs.… oxygen masks and anti-smoke goggles, but excessive black smoke obscured the pilots view of the instruments and forward vision; PIC then decided to make a forced landing; pilots opened sliding-windows to regain vision, pilot viewed forward through opened sliding-window…. aircraft trailing smoke under rear fuselage…. impacted at 1403 hrs about 5 km short of Rwy 7, in a open farm-gardening area; configuration: LG down, partial flaps….
Aeroflot / 16Oct86 Tu-134 enroute, fire in cargo bay, executed a forced landing near Skytivkar, Russia. Sob = 82, two crew killed. [Flt Int'l, 24Jan'87, pg 38.]
Aeroflot / 17Nov90 Tu-154 CCCP-85664, a Cargo Fire aboard -- forced landing near Velichovky USSR [location? per Flt Int'l]. … Enroute Basel/Switzerland to Moscow … While enroute over Czechoslovakia crew reported fire and smoke in cabin. Crew radio'd Prague Airport to prepare for their emergency landing. Shortly later aircraft lost Communications (lost electrical pwr?). Crew elected to make a forced landing, landed near Dubenec/CSSR [cited location per CW's translation]… at 1521 hrs local time. Crew of six escaped wreckage. …
Aeroflot / 13Jan95 Tu-134A, crash-landing near Sverdlovsk (now Jekanterinenburg). \\ The Russian aircraft was en-route from Tjumen (Siberia) to Ufa and Wolgograd, when crew noticed a cockpit indication of "smoke in the baggage hold"…. asked ATC for a emergency descent for landing at the nearest airport, Sverdlosk-Koltosvo. … emergency landing in a wooded area, 30 miles from the airport. Sob = 68 , fatalities = 22....
Such an EMERGENCY LANDING, off-airport, has been accomplished during inflight fires -- just not recently. Until the fires aboard the new DC-6 (4Nov47 & 11Nov47), transport aircraft had deploy-able barium nitrate Landing Flare meant as a safety feature for emergency night landing [another hazardous engineered safety feature].
Recall that the Boeing-PIC, while flying over the North Cascades, elected to attempt an emergency landing near Oso -- rather than attempt to get back to BFI:19Oct59 B707-22 / N7071 upset, wing/fuel/structure fire, of a Boeing Trainer. During crew training for Braniff pilots, while practicing dutch roll recoveries, the yaw-roll upset severed three of its engines. An ensuing wing-fire consumed wing structure, ongoing fire motivated pilots to attempt a crash landing in the North Fork of the Stillaguamish River (near Oso northeast of Seattle) at 1620 PST. Four crew-observers survived by taking ditching stations in the aft cabin (three operating crew were killed). One of those observer/survivors was a Boeing pilot (Bill Allsopp).
TWA Lockheed Constellation NC86513 Star of Lisbon / 11Jul46, near Reading, PA. Sixteen minutes after T/O (during practice engine-out ops) an F/E smelled odor of burning insulation; when he opened cockpit-bulkhead Door to cabin blast of heat and dense black smoke poured into cockpit. Smoke in cockpit inhibited pilots Nilsen and Brown from seeing panel. Cockpit crew-hatch was opened to clear air, but this only drew more smoke into cockpit. Capt-IP Brown opened right sliding window; Brown put head out window and flew aircraft to emergency landing (smoke created danger of losing control). Landed 2 miles NE of airport, skidded 1000' across hay field. Tanks ruptured, fuel fire. IP-PIC RF Brown survived (burned, amputee), five other pilots/FEs died inside the burning wreck….
NW Flt 1-11 / 14Jul60 DC-7C N292 ditched 5 miles east of Polillo Island, P.I. (Pacific), at 0430 Manila time [night]. Departed Okinawa at 1712 hrs GMT enroute Manila. … magnesium fire; descended through cloud with moderate rain (night), rain increased intensity of Magnesium fire on #2 Eng Nose Case; fire in left wing -- structural failure feared \\ ditched at 2030z, 67 nm NE of Manila (five miles from shore) sob = 7 crew and 51 pax (1 fatality, 44 injured)….
Varig 820 / 11Jul73 B707-345C PP-VJZ inflight cabin fire, crash landed short of Paris/Orly. Killed: 7 crew + 116 pax. Survivors: 10 crew + 1 pax.
From Rio de Janeiro to Paris, Cruised FL330/370/390 (10 hours). Descended toward Paris … At 1358:20 hrs pilots radioed "... problem with fire on board." Pilots requested "emergency descent". … 10 nm out, pilots reported "total fire" … Last radio transmission at 1401:10 hrs.… oxygen masks and anti-smoke goggles, but excessive black smoke obscured the pilots view of the instruments and forward vision; PIC then decided to make a forced landing; pilots opened sliding-windows to regain vision, pilot viewed forward through opened sliding-window…. aircraft trailing smoke under rear fuselage…. impacted at 1403 hrs about 5 km short of Rwy 7, in a open farm-gardening area; configuration: LG down, partial flaps….
Aeroflot / 16Oct86 Tu-134 enroute, fire in cargo bay, executed a forced landing near Skytivkar, Russia. Sob = 82, two crew killed. [Flt Int'l, 24Jan'87, pg 38.]
Aeroflot / 17Nov90 Tu-154 CCCP-85664, a Cargo Fire aboard -- forced landing near Velichovky USSR [location? per Flt Int'l]. … Enroute Basel/Switzerland to Moscow … While enroute over Czechoslovakia crew reported fire and smoke in cabin. Crew radio'd Prague Airport to prepare for their emergency landing. Shortly later aircraft lost Communications (lost electrical pwr?). Crew elected to make a forced landing, landed near Dubenec/CSSR [cited location per CW's translation]… at 1521 hrs local time. Crew of six escaped wreckage. …
Aeroflot / 13Jan95 Tu-134A, crash-landing near Sverdlovsk (now Jekanterinenburg). \\ The Russian aircraft was en-route from Tjumen (Siberia) to Ufa and Wolgograd, when crew noticed a cockpit indication of "smoke in the baggage hold"…. asked ATC for a emergency descent for landing at the nearest airport, Sverdlosk-Koltosvo. … emergency landing in a wooded area, 30 miles from the airport. Sob = 68 , fatalities = 22....
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House Passes Bill Declaring Lithium Batteries Safe
PC World:
More: House Passes Bill Declaring Lithium Batteries Safe - PCWorld Business Center
The House of Representatives has passed legislation that prevents the United States government from implementing more stringent rules classifying lithium batteries as a hazardous material. Does that mean the batteries are not hazardous? Not necessarily. The move is based on lobbying and financial interests, rather than environmental or safety concerns.
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Pathetic. The fact that it was a cargo plane and happened in a strange land means no-one in government gives a crap. Couple this with money from lobby groups and you have another opportunity to improve safety pushed to the side.
What a collection of corrupt immoral gits we have for a government.
What a collection of corrupt immoral gits we have for a government.
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The fact that the US Government has just run out of money does rather put that in perspective.
I did have the very debate about the laxness of the US approach last year with SNS3guppy. Sadly some people still think that the US is a world leader in aviation safety.
I did have the very debate about the laxness of the US approach last year with SNS3guppy. Sadly some people still think that the US is a world leader in aviation safety.
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I'd really hate to think the position and feeling the F/O found himself in.
- New on type (Only 78 hours)
- Oxygen masks not working properly (Are 747 masks that bad or like in my sims people just don't know how adjust the settings once on?)
- Captain (Who is also low hour on type), out of seat and disappeared into the smoke.
- Cockpit visibility zero. I think the F/O didn't know how close and fast he was to DXB due to his instruments being obscured. Maybe one to remember in future, is to ask for a running commentary from radar (You don't have to listen to it.)
- Dubious Flight controls. How does the 747 A/P adjust the elevator? Is the mechanism near the control surface? Might explain why the A/P did better job at controlling the aircraft, this is assumed as A/P was left in!
I remember seeing a photo on the wall the 737 briefing room in Crane Bank (BA's SIM CENTRE) of a 737 cockpit after a smoke event. Smoke had adhered to all instruments.
This accident throws up a conflict in my mind, between floor it (Possibility of ending hot and high, as in this case) or take a little bit of extra time to get it right first time (Swiss SR111, ran out of time).
One thing this does enforce, on first confirmation of fire or smoke get going down!
- New on type (Only 78 hours)
- Oxygen masks not working properly (Are 747 masks that bad or like in my sims people just don't know how adjust the settings once on?)
- Captain (Who is also low hour on type), out of seat and disappeared into the smoke.
- Cockpit visibility zero. I think the F/O didn't know how close and fast he was to DXB due to his instruments being obscured. Maybe one to remember in future, is to ask for a running commentary from radar (You don't have to listen to it.)
- Dubious Flight controls. How does the 747 A/P adjust the elevator? Is the mechanism near the control surface? Might explain why the A/P did better job at controlling the aircraft, this is assumed as A/P was left in!
I remember seeing a photo on the wall the 737 briefing room in Crane Bank (BA's SIM CENTRE) of a 737 cockpit after a smoke event. Smoke had adhered to all instruments.
This accident throws up a conflict in my mind, between floor it (Possibility of ending hot and high, as in this case) or take a little bit of extra time to get it right first time (Swiss SR111, ran out of time).
One thing this does enforce, on first confirmation of fire or smoke get going down!
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Could a possible problem with PACK 1 have been a contributing factor here?
Since Pack 1 was the source to have positive pressure in the cockpit and Pack 2 & 3 were shut down with the fire list, I would say a big YES.
What is not clear is that will pack 2 or 3 supply the positive pressure to the cockpit if Pack 1 is inop.
What is not clear is that will pack 2 or 3 supply the positive pressure to the cockpit if Pack 1 is inop.
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Originally Posted by Touch'n'oops
Are 747 masks that bad or like in my sims people just don't know how adjust the settings once on
systems...
There are two crew oxygen bottles in the forward cargo compartment, situated in the cargo compartment sidewall just behind the forward cargo door. A pressure reducer reduces the bottles high pressure of up to 1850 psi to a medium pressure. A single medium pressure line goes forward and upward through the sidewall of the maindeck to the cockpit, where another pressure regulator is situated behind the coat rack. After the pressure is further reduced to ± 100psi, the system splits up in 4 lines to the respective crew oxygen masks.
So as it appears that the captains oxygen supply was compromised (ie. burned through) with the First Officer apparently still having oxygen, the fire must have progressed inside the cockpit area, as that is where the system splits up.
This story just goes from bad to worse...
As far as keeping smoke out of the cockpit:
From the B777 FCOM:
Unfortunately, the worlds most popular widebody freighter doesn't have it set up like that.
So as it appears that the captains oxygen supply was compromised (ie. burned through) with the First Officer apparently still having oxygen, the fire must have progressed inside the cockpit area, as that is where the system splits up.
This story just goes from bad to worse...
As far as keeping smoke out of the cockpit:
From the B777 FCOM:
777F
The flight deck and supernumerary cabin receive 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack. To prevent smoke and objectionable odors from entering the occupied compartments, the flight deck and supernumerary cabin are maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the main deck cargo and lower cargo compartments.
The flight deck and supernumerary cabin receive 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack. To prevent smoke and objectionable odors from entering the occupied compartments, the flight deck and supernumerary cabin are maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the main deck cargo and lower cargo compartments.
Last edited by Mariner; 11th Apr 2011 at 13:12.
Mariner wrote...
"As far as keeping smoke out of the cockpit:
From the B777 FCOM:
Quote:
777F
The flight deck and supernumerary cabin receive 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack. To prevent smoke and objectionable odors from entering the occupied compartments, the flight deck and supernumerary cabin are maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the main deck cargo and lower cargo compartments.
It's a shame the worlds most popular widebody freighter doesn't have it set up like that."
Well the 747 was originally designed and built in the 60s and the 777 in the 90s. Needless to say with 30 years difference a lot of new engineering ideas could be incorporated in the 777.
"As far as keeping smoke out of the cockpit:
From the B777 FCOM:
Quote:
777F
The flight deck and supernumerary cabin receive 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack. To prevent smoke and objectionable odors from entering the occupied compartments, the flight deck and supernumerary cabin are maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the main deck cargo and lower cargo compartments.
It's a shame the worlds most popular widebody freighter doesn't have it set up like that."
Well the 747 was originally designed and built in the 60s and the 777 in the 90s. Needless to say with 30 years difference a lot of new engineering ideas could be incorporated in the 777.
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Smoke-filled Rooms.
A very sad event which will happen again and again IAW the "Tombstone Imperative".
I dream that one day we can pillory and maybe hang the DESIGNERS who drew up the specs for such things as O2 masks and smoke clearance procedures.
After a decade and a half wearing the light blue or "growbag" flying suits in 'Bett Windsor's Flying Club', I was horrified in my first civilian simulator smoke exercise at how awful and well-nigh impossible it was to communicate with both my colleague in the other seat and the "ATC" outside. The accoustic qualities of the "Eros" O2 mask (and others?), as described in this topic by "Sqwak7700", should have resulted in these items NEVER being certified for aviation use-what were the FAA/CAA thinking when they OK'd them?!
The early HS125 had a white "pingpong ball" handle beneath the right hand pilot's seat which was supposedly to be operated for smoke clearance. The RAF Dominie pilots who regularly froze in the -200 series of this great little craft (whilst the trainee navs cooked in the back!) discovered that they could stay warm at the front by partially opening this vent, resulting in the DV at the aircraft rear being nearly closed, but still controlling the cabin alt. The flow of warm air FORWARD to the flight deck was very pleasant, but the smoke clearance emgy checklist still commanded one to operate this lever!!!! C'mon Mr Hawker Siddley, what WERE YOU thinking of?????
Re the issue of approach plates for aircraft on fire diversions, hopefully the relevant "target" airfield ATC can provide, at short notice, the best rwy QDM, freq, safe platform alt and QNH? I don't think the MDA, marker check alt, G/A procedure and all the other gubbins littering todays plates would be high on my priorities list, maybe other contributors would like to add/subtract form these items?
After Valujet and other air disasters, why can't dangerous items like Lithium batteries in bulk be prohibited from air carriage? At least on a bulk sea carrier you can heave the lot overboard on the heads of the pirates???
Sorry, did someone shout "Economics" from the back of the room?!
I dream that one day we can pillory and maybe hang the DESIGNERS who drew up the specs for such things as O2 masks and smoke clearance procedures.
After a decade and a half wearing the light blue or "growbag" flying suits in 'Bett Windsor's Flying Club', I was horrified in my first civilian simulator smoke exercise at how awful and well-nigh impossible it was to communicate with both my colleague in the other seat and the "ATC" outside. The accoustic qualities of the "Eros" O2 mask (and others?), as described in this topic by "Sqwak7700", should have resulted in these items NEVER being certified for aviation use-what were the FAA/CAA thinking when they OK'd them?!
The early HS125 had a white "pingpong ball" handle beneath the right hand pilot's seat which was supposedly to be operated for smoke clearance. The RAF Dominie pilots who regularly froze in the -200 series of this great little craft (whilst the trainee navs cooked in the back!) discovered that they could stay warm at the front by partially opening this vent, resulting in the DV at the aircraft rear being nearly closed, but still controlling the cabin alt. The flow of warm air FORWARD to the flight deck was very pleasant, but the smoke clearance emgy checklist still commanded one to operate this lever!!!! C'mon Mr Hawker Siddley, what WERE YOU thinking of?????
Re the issue of approach plates for aircraft on fire diversions, hopefully the relevant "target" airfield ATC can provide, at short notice, the best rwy QDM, freq, safe platform alt and QNH? I don't think the MDA, marker check alt, G/A procedure and all the other gubbins littering todays plates would be high on my priorities list, maybe other contributors would like to add/subtract form these items?
After Valujet and other air disasters, why can't dangerous items like Lithium batteries in bulk be prohibited from air carriage? At least on a bulk sea carrier you can heave the lot overboard on the heads of the pirates???
Sorry, did someone shout "Economics" from the back of the room?!
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Hello Barking - re 'Div' plates, if that was for my posts #30 & #40 I repeat I was merely offering a possible explanation for the decision, not criticism nor affirmation. (I still don't think they would have made Doha).
PS Good luck with your other 'quest' here. Nil carborundum.
PS Good luck with your other 'quest' here. Nil carborundum.
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Mariner
I believe the air conditioning on the 744F is not as bad as you make out.
From the FCOM of a well know operator of 744F :
From the FCOM of a well know operator of 744F :
Cargo Fire Arm
When a Cargo Fire Arm switch is pushed, pack operation and air distribution is configured to starve the affected zone of fresh air, minimize air movement, purge smoke from the flight deck and upper deck, and increase the supply of fresh air to the flight deck.
When a Cargo Fire Arm switch is pushed, pack operation and air distribution is configured to starve the affected zone of fresh air, minimize air movement, purge smoke from the flight deck and upper deck, and increase the supply of fresh air to the flight deck.
air systems
I have that very same text in my FCOM's Zimmerfly. I'm certainly not saying it is bad.
However, it appears that it didn't work very well in this instance.
The idea of a kind of sealed cockpit with a bit of positive pressure appeals to me.
Jet Jockey, I did go back and change my statement from it is a shame to unfortunately. Not putting the blame on Boeing here.
Boeing sure improved on the 747 over the years, as the 74-8 has a dedicated pack for the cockpit, plus an alternate ventilation system, allowing clean outside air into the cockpit even when all packs are off. Good thing.
But no mention about a slightly higher pressure in the cockpit. Perhaps that would be difficult to achieve with all those control cables.
Unfortunately.
However, it appears that it didn't work very well in this instance.
The idea of a kind of sealed cockpit with a bit of positive pressure appeals to me.
Jet Jockey, I did go back and change my statement from it is a shame to unfortunately. Not putting the blame on Boeing here.
Boeing sure improved on the 747 over the years, as the 74-8 has a dedicated pack for the cockpit, plus an alternate ventilation system, allowing clean outside air into the cockpit even when all packs are off. Good thing.
But no mention about a slightly higher pressure in the cockpit. Perhaps that would be difficult to achieve with all those control cables.
Unfortunately.
Portable oxygen
Some 744 freigters have one PBE mounted against the rear cockpit bulkhead. Plus a portable oxygen bottle with a full-face mask (for walk-around purposes after a decompression), stored in a closet in the rear of the cockpit. Which would serve for evacuating purposes as well I guess.
Getting to, and donning them, would be another matter. You would have to take your crew oxygen mask off, as the hose would not be long enough to reach either PBE or bottle.
Not an easy task in thick smoke.
For evacuation the 744F has a crew service door on the upper deck, right behind the cockpit, with an evacuation slide. Might be easier (if that is the correct word here) than the cockpit escape hatch, and almost as close.
The 744BCF has upper deck emergency doors with slides (from it's passenger flying days) on the rear of the upper deck. In that case your best chance might be the overhead escape hatch in the cockpit, as the BCF has a rather long upper deck.
Getting to, and donning them, would be another matter. You would have to take your crew oxygen mask off, as the hose would not be long enough to reach either PBE or bottle.
Not an easy task in thick smoke.
For evacuation the 744F has a crew service door on the upper deck, right behind the cockpit, with an evacuation slide. Might be easier (if that is the correct word here) than the cockpit escape hatch, and almost as close.
The 744BCF has upper deck emergency doors with slides (from it's passenger flying days) on the rear of the upper deck. In that case your best chance might be the overhead escape hatch in the cockpit, as the BCF has a rather long upper deck.