Crash-Cork Airport
Daily mail quote;
"Witnesses said the plane struck the runway which catapulted it into the air. The plane then spun over in the air before landing on its roof."
Studying the daily mail pictures one can clearly see that there is no mud or grass on the wheels and that there appears to be a dusting of dirt on the fuselage,perhaps indicative that propellers were turning and that the wheels did not contact the grass.
"Witnesses said the plane struck the runway which catapulted it into the air. The plane then spun over in the air before landing on its roof."
Studying the daily mail pictures one can clearly see that there is no mud or grass on the wheels and that there appears to be a dusting of dirt on the fuselage,perhaps indicative that propellers were turning and that the wheels did not contact the grass.
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Moggiee:
"As for cloudbase, the acceptable minimum on an ILS approach is 0'. "
Only for CAT III ILS approaches. CAT II approaches have a 100' cloud base minimum, and CAT I minimum is 200'.
ATPRider:
"Can anyone tell me if Ireland has "Absolute Minima" below which ATC must inform a crew that if they commence an approach they will be required to take reporting action? "
There is no such legislation in Ireland. There are published minimum RVR values (whether iRVR or HORVR) for each instrument runway, which are calculated using factors such as instrument approach aids and AGL etc. available for the runway concerned; but there is nothing to stop a crew making an approach to DH. It is very possible that the wx could have improved sufficiently on completion of the approach to make a landing possible where it would have been impossible on commencement! I have seen it happen. The onus is on the crew to exercise professional responsibility.
I am not speculating as to cause of this unfortunate accident - merely correcting an error and answering a question. I for one will await the official investigation report.
"As for cloudbase, the acceptable minimum on an ILS approach is 0'. "
Only for CAT III ILS approaches. CAT II approaches have a 100' cloud base minimum, and CAT I minimum is 200'.
ATPRider:
"Can anyone tell me if Ireland has "Absolute Minima" below which ATC must inform a crew that if they commence an approach they will be required to take reporting action? "
There is no such legislation in Ireland. There are published minimum RVR values (whether iRVR or HORVR) for each instrument runway, which are calculated using factors such as instrument approach aids and AGL etc. available for the runway concerned; but there is nothing to stop a crew making an approach to DH. It is very possible that the wx could have improved sufficiently on completion of the approach to make a landing possible where it would have been impossible on commencement! I have seen it happen. The onus is on the crew to exercise professional responsibility.
I am not speculating as to cause of this unfortunate accident - merely correcting an error and answering a question. I for one will await the official investigation report.
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Its a tragedy. It is unclear to me if the plane ended up on the runway or not. It does seem to me that engine failure during a missed approach could have lead to an upside down crash.
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Moggiee:
"As for cloudbase, the acceptable minimum on an ILS approach is 0'. "
Only for CAT III ILS approaches. CAT II approaches have a 100' cloud base minimum, and CAT I minimum is 200'.
"As for cloudbase, the acceptable minimum on an ILS approach is 0'. "
Only for CAT III ILS approaches. CAT II approaches have a 100' cloud base minimum, and CAT I minimum is 200'.
BarbiesBoyfriend
Nigel on draft. It was a question
Did the RVR get up to CAT 1 minimums or didn't it?
Sure don't look like it.
Sure don't look like it.
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Englishal
I don't care whether you can read the instruments or not although that ability does help.
If you don't fully understand what the controller is saying and therefore are then unaware of the actual conditions you can read your instruments all the way into the ground.
Manx2 have previous for this sort of getthereitis. There have been previous incidents at IOM and BHD. German pilot I believe got fired for busting minimas.
People are dead in the drive for profit no other way to put it.
If you don't fully understand what the controller is saying and therefore are then unaware of the actual conditions you can read your instruments all the way into the ground.
Manx2 have previous for this sort of getthereitis. There have been previous incidents at IOM and BHD. German pilot I believe got fired for busting minimas.
People are dead in the drive for profit no other way to put it.
Last edited by rabcnesbitt; 11th Feb 2011 at 01:42. Reason: Doesn't have connection to Englishal
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Few seem to have noticed the environmental factor as a cause for things to go wrong. Hint; Try to find out when these guys started their shift and I think you will find the answer to a lot of your questions.
Yet again I'm with NoD on the subject of the the "three approach rule". Unless and until someone can show it's in the Manx Ops manual can we drop it.....it is not a generic rule.
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Manx Ops Manual
Manx2 do not have an ops manual they are a ticketing agency. This incident will look at the ops manuals and procedures covered under the Flightline BCN AOC.
Manx2 can walk away from this, they have no responsibility, they have no safety oversight and the only thing it may cost them is lost bookings. Any law suites will be between the airport, the manufacturer and Flightline BCN.
Manx2 can walk away from this, they have no responsibility, they have no safety oversight and the only thing it may cost them is lost bookings. Any law suites will be between the airport, the manufacturer and Flightline BCN.
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Daily mail quote;
"Witnesses said the plane struck the runway which catapulted it into the air. The plane then spun over in the air before landing on its roof."
So how could they have seen that
happen when it was reported that the fog was so thick the aircraft couldn't be seen and witnesses were unaware of the crash until they heard it? 
"Witnesses said the plane struck the runway which catapulted it into the air. The plane then spun over in the air before landing on its roof."
So how could they have seen that
happen when it was reported that the fog was so thick the aircraft couldn't be seen and witnesses were unaware of the crash until they heard it?
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Good grief
Originally Posted by hhobbit
The condition of the u/c indicates the wheels made no contact with the ground, so it seems the a/c contacted in present and final attitude. Therefore this was more than a hard landing from a botched approach, or so it would appear.
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I don't care whether you can read the instruments or not although that ability does help.
If you don't fully understand what the controller is saying and therefore are then unaware of the actual conditions you can read your instruments all the way into the ground.
If you don't fully understand what the controller is saying and therefore are then unaware of the actual conditions you can read your instruments all the way into the ground.
Yes but you have altimeters, radar altimeters, and approach plates. When you reach minimums as read from your altimeters, and you can't see the runway you go missed.
If it reached the runway then was "catapulted". That almost suggests it was "flown into the ground"...Reminds me a bit of that Fedex MD11 which had the bad landing in Japan. Sounds like no flare, heavy landing....bounce....etc...
Originally Posted by rabcnesbitt
...Manx2 can walk away from this, they have no responsibility...
Originally Posted by englishal
...it reached the runway then was "catapulted". That almost suggests it was "flown into the ground"...
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Manx2 have previous for this sort of getthereitis. There have been previous incidents at IOM and BHD.
German pilot I believe got fired for busting minimas.
People are dead in the drive for profit no other way to put it.
Got to say I donīt find your post completely logical...
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Flightline BCN ???
Anyone know who Flightline BCN is? Anything to do with old Flightline of Southend which disappeared just over 2 years ago? Not perhaps a rebirth ?
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Moonwalker at post 175 raises perhaps the most interesting question I have seen so far on here.
What time did they commence their duty, and how was their work pattern in the hours and days leading up to yesterday morning?
You seem to imply you know the answer Moonwalker?
What time did they commence their duty, and how was their work pattern in the hours and days leading up to yesterday morning?
You seem to imply you know the answer Moonwalker?
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Seems the aircraft was on the glide as it crashed by the transmitter, also seems he became visual just off the localiser indicating to me he made a last minute attempt to regain the centrline possibly overbanking near the ground and clipping the wing causing the A/C to overturn. A fine example of press on regardless and looking at the weather at the time he should have thrown it away on first attempt.
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Andrasz
BTW can someone tell me how to work this quote system.
On your logic then if you buy your ticket from the Co-op and something happens that the Co-op are responsible. They are not like Manx2 they sold you a ticket on behalf of the carrier.
From Manx2 Ts & Cs
General
Manx2 Ltd. is providing your tickets for this flight booking. We proudly claim to offer great service at competitive prices, and we are constantly looking at ways in which we can improve our service.On behalf of Manx2, Van Air Europe As will be the main operator for flights from the Isle of Man to Blackpool, Belfast City, Galway, Newcastle and Leeds; also between Belfast City & Galway, and Galway to Cork. FLM Aviation will be the main operator for flights from the Isle of Man to Gloucestershire Airport and Cardiff to Anglesey. Flightline BCN will be the main operator for flights from Belfast City to Cork. Please see our terms and conditions for full details or enquire at check in.
So there you have it they are the ticket provider nothing else or so it seems. (Manx2 : Terms and Conditions)
The pilot who was fired was asked by Manx2 to have a look and see if he could get into BHD he did and because the powers that be were doing an investigation he got fired by Vanair.
It is a very sticky situation and the authorities should clarify it and stop the practice of multiple wet leases with AOC support to a non AOC holder. Manx2 have used over 12 airlines since they started.
As for the profit motive yes airlines have to make a profit but not at the expense of safety. Was the Captain pressured into doing the flight? Did he feel some sort of misplaced loyalty or did Manx2 just say do it or your company is going home? Some people are that callus. Money means everything and to hell with everything else.
As I said Manx2 have as much responsibility in Law as Co-op Travel would. But it will all come out in the wash. I'm passing everything I've found out to the investigators and I'll let them interpret it.
On your logic then if you buy your ticket from the Co-op and something happens that the Co-op are responsible. They are not like Manx2 they sold you a ticket on behalf of the carrier.
From Manx2 Ts & Cs
General
Manx2 Ltd. is providing your tickets for this flight booking. We proudly claim to offer great service at competitive prices, and we are constantly looking at ways in which we can improve our service.On behalf of Manx2, Van Air Europe As will be the main operator for flights from the Isle of Man to Blackpool, Belfast City, Galway, Newcastle and Leeds; also between Belfast City & Galway, and Galway to Cork. FLM Aviation will be the main operator for flights from the Isle of Man to Gloucestershire Airport and Cardiff to Anglesey. Flightline BCN will be the main operator for flights from Belfast City to Cork. Please see our terms and conditions for full details or enquire at check in.
So there you have it they are the ticket provider nothing else or so it seems. (Manx2 : Terms and Conditions)
The pilot who was fired was asked by Manx2 to have a look and see if he could get into BHD he did and because the powers that be were doing an investigation he got fired by Vanair.
It is a very sticky situation and the authorities should clarify it and stop the practice of multiple wet leases with AOC support to a non AOC holder. Manx2 have used over 12 airlines since they started.
As for the profit motive yes airlines have to make a profit but not at the expense of safety. Was the Captain pressured into doing the flight? Did he feel some sort of misplaced loyalty or did Manx2 just say do it or your company is going home? Some people are that callus. Money means everything and to hell with everything else.
As I said Manx2 have as much responsibility in Law as Co-op Travel would. But it will all come out in the wash. I'm passing everything I've found out to the investigators and I'll let them interpret it.
Last edited by rabcnesbitt; 11th Feb 2011 at 07:36.
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[QUOTE]Flightline BCN ???
Anyone know who Flightline BCN is? Anything to do with old Flightline of Southend which disappeared just over 2 years ago? Not perhaps a rebirth ?/QUOTE]
No I think not. Clearly of Spanish origin looking at the website.
Anyone know who Flightline BCN is? Anything to do with old Flightline of Southend which disappeared just over 2 years ago? Not perhaps a rebirth ?/QUOTE]
No I think not. Clearly of Spanish origin looking at the website.