Iran accident

[RegDep]

Thanks aterpster, I agree with you.

You might be interested that since post #32, Avherald has edited their information (at the time of me typing this it was last updated Monday, Jan 10th 2011 16:17Z), and they have, when adding the coordinates, changed the "mountaineous terrain" to "terrain", and edited the line for instrument approaches to read "...there are ILS instrument approaches only to runway 21 (21: ILS, VOR/DME, VOR, NDB, 03: VOR/DME)".

Copying and pasting (stopping the information from updating) from an evolving source of information has its problems. Watch them work, they are so not bad.

[PJ2]

I see they found the DFDR, and also that the aircraft crashed in a farmer's field, not in the mountains as first broadcast.

First flight 1974 - wonder what parameters will be available and which ones were working?

PJ2

[RegDep]

Jazz Hands, any better source you know of? I would be interested in finding some (honestly). Best combination of accuracy and speed. Anything to avoid unfounded speculation not based on plausible information (in shortage of hard facts). Assuming that you need to speculate and do not want to just wait for the report.

[Super VC-10]

If it's speed and accuracy you want, Wikipedia is quite good at bashing an article into shape quickly.

Iran Air Flight 277 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Super VC-10]

Yes, Wikipedia can be accurate, when it's done properly. You will notice that all statements are sourced, and there is no speculation in the article. The initial confusion over numbers is covered, with the official total given at the end of that paragraph.

If anyone notices any errors in the article, either post them here or edit the article yourself. You don't need to create an account to edit Wikipedia.

[BOAC]

Hopefully back to reality

PJ2 - do you have a confirmed crash location?

[aterpster]

The forum police removed my graphics asserting they are too big and thus "ruin" the pages in this fora. That's my bad for having a modern display.

So, here are the links for those interested:

Orchard where the 727 crashed per coordinates posted on Aviation Hearld:

http://tinyurl.com/47ynvff


Topography of OITR area:

http://tinyurl.com/4km4g5p



Three ILS procedures for OITR as charted by Jeppesen:

http://tinyurl.com/6695owe

[BOAC]

So, (apart from the fact that all aircraft crashes arrive on the ground eventually) elevated terrain does not appear to be a factor.

[aterpster]

BOAC:

So, (apart from the fact that all aircraft crashes arrive on the ground eventually) elevated terrain does not appear to be a factor.

Based on the Aviation Hearld's coordinates, the crash site is along the missed approach procedure, 8.2 southeast of the airport, at an elevation almost exactly the same as the airport's.

[hetfield]

Very strange.

A go around on B727 isn't that challenging.

[PJ2]

BOAC;

No, I don't have a confirmed location yet; the Airblue was straightforward as there were lots of photographs from which to work in Google Earth.

However, the location on AvHerald, (in decimal degrees) showed a location south of the mountains to the east of the airport and the article yesterday from the Curt Lewis' daily briefings of news items and articles on finding the two recorders was very clear on the description of the crash site, (quote below), so the location on the AvHerald began to make more sense than first reports of a "crash in the mountains".

"Footage on state TV showed the plane's crumpled fuselage lying in a field, torn apart in several places, under whirling snow in the darkness as rescue workers and local farmers searched for survivors in the hours after the crash."

With the wreckage "intact", (not disintegrated), most here experienced with the techniques of informed speculation may be thinking in a number of areas.... - pitch-power-speed, at and during the g/a, are obvious first things because a stall is possible given the wreckage configuration; next could be how the go-around sequence was handled, (SOPs/crew coordination) is important. Possible contributory factors, in no particular important order could be engine failure(s), GPWS/EGPWS and associated crew responses (appropriate or otherwise) need to be considered/ruled in/out, and early flap retraction below maneuvering speeds is also a possibility but that goes under examining the go-around sequence. Then the highly speculative/very improbable stuff like pitot icing, incorrect altimeter setting(s), QFE/QNH issues, mechanical failure where no one was watching the airplane, etc. Just some thoughts - it was a (relatively!) low forward speed impact but for me there is an inkling of fairly high vertical speed - just a sense.

PJ2

[Machaca]

Seems they were on track after their missed approach:

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by PJ

pitch-power-speed, at and during the g/a, are obvious first things because a stall is possible given the wreckage configuration

- that's one heck of a distance to carry a botched g/a! I think something else?

[Super VC-10]

For those complaining about the age of the aircraft, this particular aircraft would have had very low hours for its age, as it was impounded in Iraq from 1984-90, and stored from 1991-2002.

AIRFRAMES.ORG - Aircraft Database - EPIRP

[PJ2]

BOAC - yes, it is a long way. Perhaps something else.

[charming snake]

Dear Fellow pilots

I got some fresh news which i'd like to share with you :
Capt.Dad_Ras ( peace with him ) the PIC of 727 who had over 9250 HRS & with many type ratings on his back of his licence & on type experience such as : Fokker100 / 747-100 / 727 which most of his experience was on 727 ( almost 4000 HRS ) , & his F/O who had almost 1000 HRS on this type .
despite bad weather which caused almost 2 HRS delay for departure,finally he decided to fly in bad weather ( low viz & heavy snowing ) , the flight took normally 55 mins or 1 hr max , ..we all know about the metar .
so , he tried ILS 21 , descented to DA/H but couldn't see the visual refrences , so he decided to make missed approach & said to tower , 'm gonna make another try & if i can't with , second try i'll be back to alternate a/p which was the tehran & tower controller replied back as u prefer ...
& he followed the missed app procedure , he climbed to some 7200/7300 FT AGL & followed intercept R-150 , (since all iranian accidents recently happenes , the GOV point the poor pilot while he's dead & pour all those blames on him , he was very aware of the situation even at that moment ) while both engines #1 & #3 failed all of the sudden , he pressed the button & said to tower : mayday have 2 engines failure but , my anti ice is ON , so he knew after that , might be said : he didn't turn on the anti ice , so he got eng flamed out . he tried to control the A/C but only with one eng .....he could saved only 25 lifes .
the idea of : had no fuel at time a/c impacted to ground was vanished , basically bcoz no trace of burnin' obssessed me but once i heard he declared if we can not land durin' his second attempt we'll back to tehran again , & his FE was one of the most experienced person in iran .
so , it was only & only technical problem in his engs ....
God bless them all , .....

[BOAC]

Thank you, CS for that post.

Without wishing to start any 'hares running', since our new poster states #1 and #3 'failing', has the 727 ever experienced engine problems due to wing root ice shedding similar to other tail-engined a/c? Is there anything else common between #1 and #3?

Based on the R/T posted by CS it would certainly rule out lack of fuel.

[hetfield]

has the 727 ever experienced engine problems due to wing root ice shedding similar to other tail-engined a/c? Is there anything else common between #1 and #3?

1. Not to my knowledge
2. No. Fuel is tank to engine as well.

Even with #2 remaining (HYD A sys avail) one should be able to make it, cause you can bring up gear and flaps and thrust is enough to maintain altitude with medium weight.

[lomapaseo]

Without wishing to start any 'hares running', since our new poster states #1 and #3 'failing', has the 727 ever experienced engine problems due to wing root ice shedding similar to other tail-engined a/c?

With the zillions of hours that the aircraft type has, just about everything possible has happened. However; the specifics must be examined via observation and DFDR. So it's a waste of band width to discuss this further unless some other evidence specific to this event turns up.

[BOAC]

Useful post on page 4! Anyone with anything really useful?