Sleepy pilot caused Indian passenger plane crash
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The problem with your comment about AF358 is this: It might be appropriate on this thread as a relevant comment about CRM if it were true, but it isn't.
You obviously have been given wrong information from some source; neither the report nor the CVR support your statement.
Sam
The problem with your comment about AF358 is this: It might be appropriate on this thread as a relevant comment about CRM if it were true, but it isn't.
You obviously have been given wrong information from some source; neither the report nor the CVR support your statement.
Sam
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This flight would have been an all night flight of 3-4 hours duration departing about 1AM from Dubai. Newspaper reports state crew well rested before flight with the captain having 3 1/2 days off prior to the flight. However, I cant find out if their flight originated in Dubai, or more likely, the crew operated from India to Dubai and then the return flight. Which would be a particularly arduous tour of duty. Anybody know the crews previous operation ?
Apparently, if you get rid of the foreigner (a Serb at that!) who is fatigued, then there is no safety risk remaining in "Incredible India"?
Not to make light of the issue, but as is already apparent to the posts on this topic, that fatigue may well have played a part but the response is lunacy. If a bandaid is desirable for the guy on the LHS (particularly if they are afflicted with being foreigners...) then why would the same bandaid not be applicable to the poor sod in the RHS who evidently sat through the same accident sequence.
If fatigue is a factor, it affects the whole system and is readily apparent in the operations tempo/manpower, flight schedules and crew schedules.
Frankly, when I find the next organisation that pays more than lip service to either their safety policy, fatigue management and risk management, then it will be the first. (and I have audited numerous operators...). Same for regulators; economics trump public safety 40- Love.
Tolstoy, L. N. (1828-1910)
India, sort your act out
Not to make light of the issue, but as is already apparent to the posts on this topic, that fatigue may well have played a part but the response is lunacy. If a bandaid is desirable for the guy on the LHS (particularly if they are afflicted with being foreigners...) then why would the same bandaid not be applicable to the poor sod in the RHS who evidently sat through the same accident sequence.
If fatigue is a factor, it affects the whole system and is readily apparent in the operations tempo/manpower, flight schedules and crew schedules.
Frankly, when I find the next organisation that pays more than lip service to either their safety policy, fatigue management and risk management, then it will be the first. (and I have audited numerous operators...). Same for regulators; economics trump public safety 40- Love.
“Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised”
Tolstoy, L. N. (1828-1910)
India, sort your act out
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He was recorded snoring for half the flight.
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Particularly Arduous Tour of Duty
Mr Wooby. You are joking, surely. Bombay-Dubai-Bombay is at worst six hours flight time. Allowing for 1 hour before departure from Bombay and a 1 hour turn around in Dubai plus 10 mins after arrival back in Bombay that is still only 8 hours 10 mins. Hardly arduous if sufficient rest before departure. Have done it more times than I care to remember and never found it particularly arduous.
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How about a more realistic conclusion if they want to use the fatigue thing. The pilot was fatigued not because he had been sleeping but because of the time of the day he was flying. He would have been just as fatigued if he had forced himself to stay awake is a more likely scenario.
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Yer know what? Passengers bearing bombs next to their genitals is not our biggest problem.
Pilot fatigue keeps cropping up, over and over again. As SLF, I don't like it. In fact I'm extremely concerned about it. And so should be every other member of the flying public. If you can't stay awake when my life is in your hands.......... should I be even flying?
Pilot fatigue keeps cropping up, over and over again. As SLF, I don't like it. In fact I'm extremely concerned about it. And so should be every other member of the flying public. If you can't stay awake when my life is in your hands.......... should I be even flying?
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This investigation and its conclusion is a joke. But anyone knowing India is not surprised. It seems like nothing can be done correctly in that country.
Roger Dixon. If only the regulators would be less corrupt and more interested in your safety your opinion would matter. Unfortunately it probably requires a major accident in the same zip code as the FAA and/or JAA office. What happens in India is of no matter.
Roger Dixon. If only the regulators would be less corrupt and more interested in your safety your opinion would matter. Unfortunately it probably requires a major accident in the same zip code as the FAA and/or JAA office. What happens in India is of no matter.
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Roger Dixon: I have jumpseated - when you really find out that not all pilots are always awake on long flights, an they tend to get cat-naps .. and .. sometimes they do walk out to stretch their legs and some good old airlines still doing "meet the people" thingy (atleast to the F class pax) ....
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A cat nap is one thing, and "stabbing yourself" as we say in Spain, is quite another.
Looks like the favorite human factors case study for the future CRM courses. The guy was not fit, aparently, for whatever reason. Maybe he was sick.
Or maybe the cause was totally different!
Looks like the favorite human factors case study for the future CRM courses. The guy was not fit, aparently, for whatever reason. Maybe he was sick.
Or maybe the cause was totally different!
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MrWooby This flight would have been an all night flight of 3-4 hours duration departing about 1AM from Dubai. Newspaper reports state crew well rested before flight with the captain having 3 1/2 days off prior to the flight. However, I cant find out if their flight originated in Dubai, or more likely, the crew operated from India to Dubai and then the return flight. Which would be a particularly arduous tour of duty. Anybody know the crews previous operation ?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by jammed stab
The pilot was fatigued not because he had been sleeping but because of the time of the day he was flying.
Q: was he 'rested' after his supposed 'commute'?
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Boeing7xx post #3 - First Officer had 3650hrs TT and 3350hrs on Type. Clearly not inexperienced. Was with Jet Airways before he joined Air India Express.
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Always been warned about doing math in public but here goes -
3650 - 3350 = 300 hr TT before he started his airline career?
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Always been warned about doing math in public but here goes -
3650 - 3350 = 300 hr TT before he started his airline career?
Always been warned about doing math in public but here goes -
3650 - 3350 = 300 hr TT before he started his airline career?
3650 - 3350 = 300 hr TT before he started his airline career?
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Here is the Indian contribution to air safety, in case you didn't believe it.
Medical checks for foreign pilots now a must - The Times of India
PS, Reminds me of: "the lunatics are running the asylum".
Medical checks for foreign pilots now a must - The Times of India
PS, Reminds me of: "the lunatics are running the asylum".
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 19th Nov 2010 at 05:30.
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I love it when people try to hijack threads towards the tedious "300 hours and flying a jet, you must be mad!" when the accident involves an FO with thousands of hours under his belt...
Anyhow, it doesn't really matter whether the captain was fatigued, the weather was bad, the terrain challenging, etc. When a perfectly serviceable aeroplane gets flown into terrain after the FO called go-around three times, the main cause of the accident is company culture. Period.
P
Anyhow, it doesn't really matter whether the captain was fatigued, the weather was bad, the terrain challenging, etc. When a perfectly serviceable aeroplane gets flown into terrain after the FO called go-around three times, the main cause of the accident is company culture. Period.
P