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Sleepy pilot caused Indian passenger plane crash

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Sleepy pilot caused Indian passenger plane crash

Old 17th Nov 2010, 20:30
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faigue and medicals

How many medicals does it take to prove that you can`t be fatigued ???

Dave
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Old 17th Nov 2010, 21:46
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Rat 5

The problem with your comment about AF358 is this: It might be appropriate on this thread as a relevant comment about CRM if it were true, but it isn't.

You obviously have been given wrong information from some source; neither the report nor the CVR support your statement.

Sam
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Old 17th Nov 2010, 21:58
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This flight would have been an all night flight of 3-4 hours duration departing about 1AM from Dubai. Newspaper reports state crew well rested before flight with the captain having 3 1/2 days off prior to the flight. However, I cant find out if their flight originated in Dubai, or more likely, the crew operated from India to Dubai and then the return flight. Which would be a particularly arduous tour of duty. Anybody know the crews previous operation ?
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Old 17th Nov 2010, 22:17
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Apparently, if you get rid of the foreigner (a Serb at that!) who is fatigued, then there is no safety risk remaining in "Incredible India"?

Not to make light of the issue, but as is already apparent to the posts on this topic, that fatigue may well have played a part but the response is lunacy. If a bandaid is desirable for the guy on the LHS (particularly if they are afflicted with being foreigners...) then why would the same bandaid not be applicable to the poor sod in the RHS who evidently sat through the same accident sequence.

If fatigue is a factor, it affects the whole system and is readily apparent in the operations tempo/manpower, flight schedules and crew schedules.

Frankly, when I find the next organisation that pays more than lip service to either their safety policy, fatigue management and risk management, then it will be the first. (and I have audited numerous operators...). Same for regulators; economics trump public safety 40- Love.


“Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised”

Tolstoy, L. N. (1828-1910)


India, sort your act out
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Old 17th Nov 2010, 22:42
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He was recorded snoring for half the flight.
If indeed the pilot was a bad snorer, there is a distinct possibility that he had some degree of sleep apnea. If so, it would prevent him from obtaining benefit from his sleep, and would awaken as fatigued as before. The problem with apnea is that it won't be detected in a regular medical, where the person is awake. It would be interesting to analyse the recording to see if the snoring is regularly interrupted by silences followed by snorts - characteristic of apnea breathing pattern.
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 01:04
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Particularly Arduous Tour of Duty

Mr Wooby. You are joking, surely. Bombay-Dubai-Bombay is at worst six hours flight time. Allowing for 1 hour before departure from Bombay and a 1 hour turn around in Dubai plus 10 mins after arrival back in Bombay that is still only 8 hours 10 mins. Hardly arduous if sufficient rest before departure. Have done it more times than I care to remember and never found it particularly arduous.
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 01:36
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How about a more realistic conclusion if they want to use the fatigue thing. The pilot was fatigued not because he had been sleeping but because of the time of the day he was flying. He would have been just as fatigued if he had forced himself to stay awake is a more likely scenario.
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 07:31
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Yer know what? Passengers bearing bombs next to their genitals is not our biggest problem.

Pilot fatigue keeps cropping up, over and over again. As SLF, I don't like it. In fact I'm extremely concerned about it. And so should be every other member of the flying public. If you can't stay awake when my life is in your hands.......... should I be even flying?
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 07:40
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This investigation and its conclusion is a joke. But anyone knowing India is not surprised. It seems like nothing can be done correctly in that country.

Roger Dixon. If only the regulators would be less corrupt and more interested in your safety your opinion would matter. Unfortunately it probably requires a major accident in the same zip code as the FAA and/or JAA office. What happens in India is of no matter.
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 10:03
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snoring half the flight

Can the CVR retain audio records for whole time of flight on a looped recording?
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 10:21
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Roger Dixon: I have jumpseated - when you really find out that not all pilots are always awake on long flights, an they tend to get cat-naps .. and .. sometimes they do walk out to stretch their legs and some good old airlines still doing "meet the people" thingy (atleast to the F class pax) ....
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 11:18
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A cat nap is one thing, and "stabbing yourself" as we say in Spain, is quite another.

Looks like the favorite human factors case study for the future CRM courses. The guy was not fit, aparently, for whatever reason. Maybe he was sick.

Or maybe the cause was totally different!
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 14:50
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MrWooby This flight would have been an all night flight of 3-4 hours duration departing about 1AM from Dubai. Newspaper reports state crew well rested before flight with the captain having 3 1/2 days off prior to the flight. However, I cant find out if their flight originated in Dubai, or more likely, the crew operated from India to Dubai and then the return flight. Which would be a particularly arduous tour of duty. Anybody know the crews previous operation ?
I believe this was the first leg of their duty. The Captain resided in Frankfurt (or Dusseldorf, can't remeber which) and commuted to DXB on this particular occasion. Whether the FO non-revved on the inbound flight or an earlier one I'm not sure.
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 17:06
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Originally Posted by jammed stab
The pilot was fatigued not because he had been sleeping but because of the time of the day he was flying.
- no - he may have been 'tired, but once again people are confusing tiredness with fatigue. They are two different things. Indeed he may even have been 'fatigued', but NOT because of the 'time of day' for THIS flight. It is normal to get tired, it is not normal to become fatigued, which occurs after a significant exposure to events causing tiredness. Let's get the terminology right!

Q: was he 'rested' after his supposed 'commute'?
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Old 18th Nov 2010, 21:57
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Nothing beats being naturally well-rested, but there are modern medicines that are an effective substitute. Are they banned from the cockpit?
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Old 19th Nov 2010, 03:05
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Boeing7xx post #3 - First Officer had 3650hrs TT and 3350hrs on Type. Clearly not inexperienced. Was with Jet Airways before he joined Air India Express.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Always been warned about doing math in public but here goes -

3650 - 3350 = 300 hr TT before he started his airline career?
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Old 19th Nov 2010, 03:51
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Right on!!

I think it is a big step forward, the FAA wanting to stop this with a minimum of 1500 hrs.
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Old 19th Nov 2010, 05:38
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Always been warned about doing math in public but here goes -

3650 - 3350 = 300 hr TT before he started his airline career?
Yes, not at all uncommon in that part iof the world.
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Old 19th Nov 2010, 06:09
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Here is the Indian contribution to air safety, in case you didn't believe it.

Medical checks for foreign pilots now a must - The Times of India

PS, Reminds me of: "the lunatics are running the asylum".

Last edited by doubleu-anker; 19th Nov 2010 at 06:30.
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Old 19th Nov 2010, 14:30
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I love it when people try to hijack threads towards the tedious "300 hours and flying a jet, you must be mad!" when the accident involves an FO with thousands of hours under his belt...

Anyhow, it doesn't really matter whether the captain was fatigued, the weather was bad, the terrain challenging, etc. When a perfectly serviceable aeroplane gets flown into terrain after the FO called go-around three times, the main cause of the accident is company culture. Period.

P
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