Qantas A380 uncontained #2 engine failure
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Hot air punditry
Desperate for any news from Rolls Royce, the pundits are generating much hot air and making connections where none exist. We should not get too excited about occasional engine failures – where the progress without breakages? except that you hope they happen mostly on the test stand.
I imagine a horizontal line representing engine reliability; on the left side are very conservative but overweight designs and on the right there is a not well defined limit represented by a theoretical engine having the least weight and fuel consumption for the least acceptable reliability. Somewhere on this line is your competitors’ engine. You, the designer are required to place your new engine in the very small space between the competition and the limit.
Advancing knowledge, breakages and technology improvements move the limit gradually to the right allowing progressive product improvement in service. Even so, a gap slowly opens up between your engine and the limit, into which gap your competitor will eventually jump. And on it goes, but it does mean that designers are continually seeking the limit of the possible, a place where hazards abound.
A relatively new factor to contend with is the short term press and public overreaction when things go wrong because people become used to living unnaturally safe and uneventful lives and forget that there is always a price to pay for advancement.
I imagine a horizontal line representing engine reliability; on the left side are very conservative but overweight designs and on the right there is a not well defined limit represented by a theoretical engine having the least weight and fuel consumption for the least acceptable reliability. Somewhere on this line is your competitors’ engine. You, the designer are required to place your new engine in the very small space between the competition and the limit.
Advancing knowledge, breakages and technology improvements move the limit gradually to the right allowing progressive product improvement in service. Even so, a gap slowly opens up between your engine and the limit, into which gap your competitor will eventually jump. And on it goes, but it does mean that designers are continually seeking the limit of the possible, a place where hazards abound.
A relatively new factor to contend with is the short term press and public overreaction when things go wrong because people become used to living unnaturally safe and uneventful lives and forget that there is always a price to pay for advancement.
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... And on it goes, but it does mean that designers are continually seeking the limit of the possible, a place where hazards abound.
But PAX's are not statistics.
... And on it goes, but it does mean that designers are continually seeking the limit of the possible, a place where hazards abound.
Yes, I agree.
But PAX's are not statistics.
Yes, I agree.
But PAX's are not statistics.
shhh .. you can't make everybody happy with something new and improved, best to go back to piston engines. There were no surprises then because you just knew they were going to fail.
Evertonian
Singapore ground A380s in Australia after crew refuses to fly | Herald Sun
UPDATE 12.12pm: SINGAPORE Airlines has grounded A380s in Melbourne and Sydney this morning after a crew's refusal to fly in London this morning. Concerns over the future of Rolls-Royce powered A380s took a new turn today after one of Singapore Airlines big jets was grounded at Heathrow airport.
Heraldsun.com.au was told the crew refused to fly the jet which was due to take-off at 8.30am (AEDT) for Singapore after oil was found in one of the jet's turbines, the same problem that was detected at the weekend on three engines that were removed from Qantas jets.
Singapore Airlines late this morning grounded another two jets in its A380 fleet - one in Melbourne and another in Sydney.
The grounding at Heathrow happened at about the same time as another A380 owned by the same airline left Sydney for Singapore.
Passengers who were due to depart from London were told that engine-maker Rolls-Royce had placed an embargo on its now-suspect Trent 900 engine which was designed for the A380, the world's biggest airliner.
On Monday, Singapore said inspections had found no problems with the Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engines used on the carrier's Airbus A380s.
"We completed engine inspections on all 11 of our A380 aircraft and did not find anything of concern," the airline's spokesman Nicholas Ionides said in a statement.
"Any further checks that may be recommended by the manufacturers will of course be done, and in the meantime we continue with our regular routine checks."
The grounding comes after Qantas said last night it had cleared the backlog caused by the grounding of its A380 fleet.
New reports have emerged that allege the spectacular engine failure near Singapore last week caused more damage to the plane involved than first thought.
The No 2 engine's violent disintegration ripped a hole through the Airbus A380's left wing, destroying wiring that prevented the pilots from turning off the No 1 engine and causing a fuel leak.
Suggestions have now emerged that there was also significant damage to hydraulic systems that prevented spoilers, panels on the wing that create drag to slow the plane down, from deploying.
The suggestions came as the Australian Transport Safety Bureau yesterday interviewed the flight crew of the stricken A380 and performed the first boroscope inspection of the Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engine.
Investigators are continuing their search for the rest of a turbine disc that broke up in the incident and have set up a schedule for examining a recovered piece that has been sent to Britain for forensic tests.
Inspections of the grounded planes continued yesterday amid suggestions European regulators were poised to issue an airworthiness directive on the checks.
Qantas is using its Boeing 747s and Airbus A330s to plug the gap caused by the A380 groundings and says it will be able to keep operations going and meet network requirements while the A380 issue is resolved.
Mr Joyce said Rolls-Royce had a good understanding of the problem, which was likely to result in a series of recommendations.
The engine-maker broke its silence to say it had made progress in understanding the cause of the engine failure on QF32 but did not provide details.
Rolls-Royce rejected speculation there was a link between the Trent 900 failure and the uncontained failure of a Boeing 787 Trent 1000 engine operating "outside of normal parameters" on a test bed in Britain.
Singapore Airlines, Qantas and Lufthansa operate A380 jets powered by different versions of the Trent 900 engine series.
The model fitted to the six Qantas planes is more powerful than that used by Singapore and Lufthansa, producing 72,000 pounds of thrust.
- with Steve Creedy
UPDATE 12.12pm: SINGAPORE Airlines has grounded A380s in Melbourne and Sydney this morning after a crew's refusal to fly in London this morning. Concerns over the future of Rolls-Royce powered A380s took a new turn today after one of Singapore Airlines big jets was grounded at Heathrow airport.
Heraldsun.com.au was told the crew refused to fly the jet which was due to take-off at 8.30am (AEDT) for Singapore after oil was found in one of the jet's turbines, the same problem that was detected at the weekend on three engines that were removed from Qantas jets.
Singapore Airlines late this morning grounded another two jets in its A380 fleet - one in Melbourne and another in Sydney.
The grounding at Heathrow happened at about the same time as another A380 owned by the same airline left Sydney for Singapore.
Passengers who were due to depart from London were told that engine-maker Rolls-Royce had placed an embargo on its now-suspect Trent 900 engine which was designed for the A380, the world's biggest airliner.
On Monday, Singapore said inspections had found no problems with the Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engines used on the carrier's Airbus A380s.
"We completed engine inspections on all 11 of our A380 aircraft and did not find anything of concern," the airline's spokesman Nicholas Ionides said in a statement.
"Any further checks that may be recommended by the manufacturers will of course be done, and in the meantime we continue with our regular routine checks."
The grounding comes after Qantas said last night it had cleared the backlog caused by the grounding of its A380 fleet.
New reports have emerged that allege the spectacular engine failure near Singapore last week caused more damage to the plane involved than first thought.
The No 2 engine's violent disintegration ripped a hole through the Airbus A380's left wing, destroying wiring that prevented the pilots from turning off the No 1 engine and causing a fuel leak.
Suggestions have now emerged that there was also significant damage to hydraulic systems that prevented spoilers, panels on the wing that create drag to slow the plane down, from deploying.
The suggestions came as the Australian Transport Safety Bureau yesterday interviewed the flight crew of the stricken A380 and performed the first boroscope inspection of the Rolls-Royce Trent 900 engine.
Investigators are continuing their search for the rest of a turbine disc that broke up in the incident and have set up a schedule for examining a recovered piece that has been sent to Britain for forensic tests.
Inspections of the grounded planes continued yesterday amid suggestions European regulators were poised to issue an airworthiness directive on the checks.
Qantas is using its Boeing 747s and Airbus A330s to plug the gap caused by the A380 groundings and says it will be able to keep operations going and meet network requirements while the A380 issue is resolved.
Mr Joyce said Rolls-Royce had a good understanding of the problem, which was likely to result in a series of recommendations.
The engine-maker broke its silence to say it had made progress in understanding the cause of the engine failure on QF32 but did not provide details.
Rolls-Royce rejected speculation there was a link between the Trent 900 failure and the uncontained failure of a Boeing 787 Trent 1000 engine operating "outside of normal parameters" on a test bed in Britain.
Singapore Airlines, Qantas and Lufthansa operate A380 jets powered by different versions of the Trent 900 engine series.
The model fitted to the six Qantas planes is more powerful than that used by Singapore and Lufthansa, producing 72,000 pounds of thrust.
- with Steve Creedy
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One question related to the oil leak which puzzles me, from my earlier life we always checked the oil level after arriving from a flight sector on the ground. I would have thought that with the operational expereince of the A380 it would be known by the ground staff if the top up of the engine oil was more than normal?, whether this information is passed down the line is another story.
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Singapore ground A380s in Australia after crew refuses to fly
So perhaps not just a problem with the 972 engines! Leaves you wondering about the "inspections" Singapore did a few days ago.
This difference in airlines is one passengers just don't seem to get. Qantas management grounds their A380 until they are convinced the planes are safe. No need for flight crew to make that decision. There was no directive that they must. It was their decision. Singapore management on the other hand are only doing what they must and basically continue flying with the assumption the problem is a once off or can be managed. It took a flight crew to make a safety decision in London and a second directive from Rolls Royce to actually cause them to stop flying. What if the crew missed the oil?
What will Lufthansa do now?
This difference in airlines is one passengers just don't seem to get. Qantas management grounds their A380 until they are convinced the planes are safe. No need for flight crew to make that decision. There was no directive that they must. It was their decision. Singapore management on the other hand are only doing what they must and basically continue flying with the assumption the problem is a once off or can be managed. It took a flight crew to make a safety decision in London and a second directive from Rolls Royce to actually cause them to stop flying. What if the crew missed the oil?
What will Lufthansa do now?
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Logically, it would seem the Oil Leakage was a result, not a cause, at least not the procuring cause. The AD's (1+2) referenced a borescope for signs of wheel movement aft, and consequent wear. Once there was wear on the shaft's splines, strip. If there was a wheel going progressively loose on its shaft, it would become more and more susceptible to strains and stresses that fit within its tested limits. Changes in thrust, in radial deflection, in wobble. Once these strains start, the time left on the wing is short.
If the 70k 900 has oil telltale, and demonstrates a link to the 72k disintegration, the DEP and other isolated characteristics no longer establish a firewall of innocence. If oil is leaking, the chain has its first few links connected, and seemingly, enough to cause very senior Captains to cancel the flight. Does Rolls lease "Power by the Hour" to BA?
If the 70k 900 has oil telltale, and demonstrates a link to the 72k disintegration, the DEP and other isolated characteristics no longer establish a firewall of innocence. If oil is leaking, the chain has its first few links connected, and seemingly, enough to cause very senior Captains to cancel the flight. Does Rolls lease "Power by the Hour" to BA?
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Singapore ground A380s in Australia after crew refuses to fly
Thank you pct085
This is the point I was asking in my post #511 p26 6th November 2010, 14:27
I was not as blunt as you.
But given that SQ has already suffered one complete IFSD with the Trent 900 and multiple (anyone know an accurate number, I believe it is around 12) engines removed from the wing for premature strip down due anomolies, the lack of maturity of the Trent 900 must be of great concern.
I just wonder what the thought process was with SQ that somehow it was just a QF problem.
This grounding shows it is an endemic 970/972 family issue and not a specific operator issue.
Intelligent caution would seem preferable at this stage.
This is the point I was asking in my post #511 p26 6th November 2010, 14:27
I was not as blunt as you.
But given that SQ has already suffered one complete IFSD with the Trent 900 and multiple (anyone know an accurate number, I believe it is around 12) engines removed from the wing for premature strip down due anomolies, the lack of maturity of the Trent 900 must be of great concern.
I just wonder what the thought process was with SQ that somehow it was just a QF problem.
This grounding shows it is an endemic 970/972 family issue and not a specific operator issue.
Intelligent caution would seem preferable at this stage.
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Tue Nov 9, 2010 8:36pm EST
(Reuters) - Singapore Airlines said on Wednesday it will change the engines on three of its A380 aircraft following an engine blowout last week on a Qantas flight.
The Rolls Royce engines on the three SIA aircraft, currently in Sydney, Melbourne and London, will be fitted with new engines, but the model will remain the same, the airline said.
"We apologize to our customers for flight disruptions that may result," Singapore Airlines said.
An airline spokeswoman described the engine change as "precautionary, as advised by Rolls Royce."
She said the engine would remain the Rolls Royce Trent 900, with a minor variation.
Singapore Air says changing engines on three A380s | Reuters
(Reuters) - Singapore Airlines said on Wednesday it will change the engines on three of its A380 aircraft following an engine blowout last week on a Qantas flight.
The Rolls Royce engines on the three SIA aircraft, currently in Sydney, Melbourne and London, will be fitted with new engines, but the model will remain the same, the airline said.
"We apologize to our customers for flight disruptions that may result," Singapore Airlines said.
An airline spokeswoman described the engine change as "precautionary, as advised by Rolls Royce."
She said the engine would remain the Rolls Royce Trent 900, with a minor variation.
Singapore Air says changing engines on three A380s | Reuters
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Singapore ground A380s in Australia after crew refuses to fly
Anyone know if the SQ engine changes are for #2 or #3 engines only?
If so, this may be an indicator of issues with engine loads created by thrust reversal.
If any of the three engines are in #1 or #4 position, then the connection is more tenuous.
If so, this may be an indicator of issues with engine loads created by thrust reversal.
If any of the three engines are in #1 or #4 position, then the connection is more tenuous.
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So you've "got it" with respect to the "one in a million" event.
There have not been one million take-off and landings (cycles) on the A380 since its inception, yet there has been one IFSD, one catastrophic failure, and multiple events - not to mention the irregularities indicated in current inspections.
Not sure what you've "got" exactly, but it does not appear to be a healthy regard for empirical evidence.
Let me guess and see if I've "got" a handle on your profile: you're a hero and the world is full of whimps?
There have not been one million take-off and landings (cycles) on the A380 since its inception, yet there has been one IFSD, one catastrophic failure, and multiple events - not to mention the irregularities indicated in current inspections.
Not sure what you've "got" exactly, but it does not appear to be a healthy regard for empirical evidence.
Let me guess and see if I've "got" a handle on your profile: you're a hero and the world is full of whimps?
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Hull and Tech expendible? Hmmm....
"...The affected planes are on their way back to Singapore with only pilots onboard. ..."
Source: Singapore could ground A380 fleet - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
As I now live in SIN, I don't want to bag out SQ, but it seems somewhat interesting. Time to up my insurance.
Chardster.
Source: Singapore could ground A380 fleet - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
As I now live in SIN, I don't want to bag out SQ, but it seems somewhat interesting. Time to up my insurance.
Chardster.
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There have not been one million take-off and landings (cycles) on the A380 since its inception, yet there has been one IFSD, one catastrophic failure, and multiple events - not to mention the irregularities indicated in current inspections.
Do you know how many cycles or flying hours there have been with the A380 RR fleet ? Can you compare the number of IFSD / failures with that of any other aircraft in its first three years of service? Is the A380 worse or better? Give us some numbers ..
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The fan retention mod was put in following several incidents in service where the fan shaft failed due to an OIL fire in LP bearing area: I don't recall this being due to a material problem as the root cause but could be wrong!
Last edited by Twenty2B; 11th Nov 2010 at 11:32.