Corendon off runway, AMS

[Teddy Robinson]

Mr Bear,

whatever your gripe with the media, this "occurrence" is of interest to this community. It is thankfully an "occurrence" rather than an accident, however the dividing line between the two has historically proven to been a fine one.
Whether it is regarded as newsworthy or not is another matter, however as a notifyable event it stands, an aircraft left the end of an adequate landing surface for reasons yet to be determined, the runway was taken out of service, and occurrence reports will have been filed so that the facts may be determined.

[Lon More]

There's a photo here which can't be linked to for copyright reasons.

WX
021855Z 16015KT 9999 FEW006 BKN009 OVC012 17/16 Q1006 BECMG SCT008 BKN012=
021825Z 16013KT 9000 -DZ FEW004 SCT006 BKN011 16/15 Q1006 NOSIG=
021755Z 15012KT 5000 -DZ FEW003 BKN005 BKN016 16/15 Q1006 BECMG 8000=
021725Z 14007KT 110V170 3200 RADZ FEW003 SCT005 BKN007 16/15 Q1007 RERADZ BECMG 6000=
021655Z 14009KT 2500 DZ FEW004 SCT007 BKN011 16/15 Q1007 REDZ TEMPO BKN007=
021625Z 13009KT 100V160 4500 DZ FEW006 BKN011 BKN025 16/15 Q1007 TEMPO 2500 BKN008=

In Airwork there was speculation that 24 might have been closed for inspection after a birdstrike but it was later confirmed that it was in use for departures

[tocamak]

Something doesn't add up. Runway 22 is only used for GA traffic. Either the wrong runway was given in post 1 or they made a visual approach (unlikely)to the wrong runway.

It really is annoying when people make postings like this. The author clearly has no idea what they are talking about making such absolute statements such "is only used for GA traffic" etc. Rwy 22 is longer than a lot of runways that are used as standard for aircraft larger than 737/A320 and is used when required by atc or especially during very strong southwesterly winds (no ILS on 24 only circling). If you are just going to make things up don't bother as plenty of people are a bit more familiar with operations at Schiphol than you are and your ignorance will show you up!

[Dairn]

Normally I just read this stuff with interest and don't bother replying, but I have to agree with the above. People do write a crock occasionally and make all knowing statements.

I have flown to AMS for 14 years and have landed on 22, always due to severe SW winds, which have been present recently. It's rare, but it happens. So 22 is not just a GA runway (I fly B737).

[76-er]

On 'De Telegraaf's website the airline now points to aquaplaning as a possible cause.

Link (in Dutch):
Gebruik Oostbaan ter discussie - Reizen en vakanties | U leest er alles over op Reiskrant.nl van De Telegraaf [reiskrant]

Not sure if 04/22 is grooved.

[lederhosen]

Based on the metars and the preferential runways I cannot see an obvious advantage to landing on 22 rather than 18c or 18r. Can anybody in the know explain why they might have been using it. If I remember correctly these guys had/have an aircraft based more or less permanently in Amsterdam, so they ought to be familiar. This is not an extreme runway by any means particularly with an ILS. Maybe a bit of complacency played a role. Whilst fortunately no big deal in itself we can all learn from this kind of incident. Reminds me a bit of the Ryanair that went off the end in Charleroi I think, where the captain said she was trying to expedite clearing the runway and skidded whilst trying to turn off too fast at the end.

[Avman]

Guilty as charged! In my haste I omitted the word "generally". Yes indeed 22 is used at times but, other than GA traffic (by the way, by stating GA I didn't exclude larger types), rarely by the airlines. The winds in question at the time didn't seem to indicate a specific need for 22.

[sleeper]

Avman, Guilty again!

Yes indeed 22 is used at times but, other than GA traffic (by the way, by stating GA I didn't exclude larger types), rarely by the airlines

In my B737 time, with Ams as home airport, I landed my Airliner numerous times on rwy 22. This together with all the other medium jet airline operated aircraft. The runway is limited to max B767/A330 type of aircraft.
With soutwesterly storms either rwy 22 is in use, or rwy 27 break off to 24. The word rarely is thus not true.
Sometimes however 22 is in use without any strong wind present, but because of the runway allocation system.

[The Ancient Geek]

Runway excursions are not a trivial issue.

Over the last 30+ years there have been enormous improvements in aviation safety, mainly due to technologies such as GPWS and better understanding of CRM issues. All of the low hanging fruit has been picked and runway excursions have risen to the top of the incident statistics, accounting for a substantial proportion of fatalities.

Only by fully understanding every incident can we make progress in reducing one of the most stubborn causes of accidents.

[8846]

Teddy Robinson, Safetypee.. good points both and well made - thank you for contributing to my knowledge.

Menir Bear..

One of the great benefits of pprune is the opportunity to learn a little here and there from professionals with knowledge and experience greater than our own. When learning anything it's a good idea, not to mention good manners, to listen.

There are some great great guys contributing to this forum, from Harrier test pilots downwards (sideways?) and the greatest of them contribute in a rational and measured way. There is a significant correlation between the stance they adopt, the attitudes they assume and the professional positions they hold.

An a/c has departed the runway/taxy-ing surface, thankfully no one was hurt and the a/c probably sustained minor damage.

This is outside the normal expectation of airline operation and therefore warrants investigation.

If you believe that we should all breath a sigh of relief and walk away with nothing more said, then you are at variance with the vast majority of professional pilots and aviation professionals contributing to this forum.

Our collective attempts to throw some light on your erroneous perceptions have been with the best of intentions - to show you and others how this incident will and should be handled.

[poldek77]

This day we landed on 22 at AMS about 20 minutes before the Corendon flight and weather was some worse then stated in METARS - it was raining with some gusty wind from SE. We had no idea what was the reason for choosing 22 for arrivals.
Neverthless I like the idea of using rwy 22 for small and medium airliners - performance is OK and comparing to 18R the taxi time to C or D gates is significantly shorter.

[fireflybob]

I expect they had charts, but I've flown with people who have not mentioned the less than expected length of runway when briefing.
I (from the middle seat) have raised this point sometimes.

dixi188, yes have spent a fair amount of time in that seat too so know what you mean. But I find it somewhat astounding that professional pilots would be landing on any runway and not be aware of the landing distance and whether or not a particular landing is "limiting" in the given conditions - surely this should be part of the briefing (which I am sure is the point you are making)?

(My post here is no comment on this incident since we don't have the facts yet)

[XLNL]

Interesting comments by the airline and captian of the flight in the telegraaf article linked by 76-er.
Wonder if it would have been wiser not to comment...
Here is the (google) translated and slightly corrected english version:

Schiphol - Airline Corendon wants clarification from the airport on the use of short Oostbaan in bad weather after a Saturday night an aircraft by the Turkish company immediately after the landing went of the runway.


In the incident of the 167 passengers aircraft 737 no one was injured, but the Inspectorate and the Safety Board have suggested an immediate investigation.
"We wonder whether this runway should be used with huge rainfall such as last weekend," says the company, indicating that the experienced British pilot could not stop in time because there was aquaplaning.
A sitting aboard KLM technician would have witnessed the dangerous situation. Sources around Schiphol stress however that the situation was safe and the 2014 meter long track, although not often, but frequently used. "Even in bad weather like Saturday, where the incident Corendon also several aircraft without any problems on the East Runway landed." The pilot would not have indicated not wanting to Oostbaan for landing when he was unexpectedly assigned. "He also made a neat landing. Only, the aircraft then didn't stop, for unknown reasons, and was driven into the grass a few meters at the end of the runway." Reports the airport.
According Corendon -that today brings a lawyer to Schiphol- the pilot however is furious about the incident. "We also point the finger at ourselves. We could have refuse landing on this runway. More importantly, the airport should not use the Oostbaan during weather like Saturday. Then you just wait for such an incident." The crew of the unit underwent a breath test after the incident, but were not drunk. The British pilot today will simply resume its flight schedule.

[andrasz]

Discuss we may till all the bone is sucked dry, but whenever an aircraft ends up on landing beyond the firm bit, it can ONLY be down to two causes:

• Aircraft landed long, given prevailing conditions and published performance parameters, and it was physically impossible to stop the plane within the available runway remaining (eg. AF/YYZ, IB/UIO). In this case the moment reversers are selected, the overrun is a 100% certainty.
• Aircraft landed within theoretical limits, but due to some action (or lack of) by the crew or technical malfunction, the plane did not decelarate as it should have.

Unfortunately all of the above with the possible (rather remote) exception of a brake/reverser failure (of which we would probably be aware of by now) logically points to at least some error in jugement from the part of the crew. We had regular 767 operations into airports with runways of around 2000m, for a 738 such runways are the norm in many parts of the world.

[Avman]

OK sleeper. Interestingly enough the hundreds of times I've been through SPL (in all sorts of weather) I have personally never seen 22 used for airline traffic. But if you are an AMS based pilot then I conceed that you would of course know better and I retract my comments. Btw, I have many times experienced the appr to 27 with a break-off for 24, but I only ever experienced it (or saw it) with turboprops and mainly (but not exclusively) with KLM CityHopper or other Dutch commuter airlines (of the time). Do they offer this option to larger a/c too?

[Surferboy]

22 is used a few times a year, mostly with heavy SW winds. But also for other reasons, could be due showers in the TMA wich might rule out the 18R/18C combination during the inboundrush.

24 is also offered with heavy SW-winds to heavy (Anything bigger than A321 if i'm not mistaken) traffic, because they aren't allowed to land 22.

[sleeper]

Avman,

Yes they would, if (t/o)traffic allows it.
I personaly watched B747's land on rwy 24 after circling from 22 (!) in southwesterly gales with ceiling's around 400 feet. It was very interesting to watch, having just vacated 22 and having to hold for their circling.
Normally though only the medium size aircraft do the 27 to 24 brake off, because of their gates being on the south side of Schiphol.

[hetfield]

circling from 22 (!) in southwesterly gales with ceiling's around 400 feet.

Sporting, isn't it?

[sleeper]

Yep especially when a, not to be named, airline's 747 did the last 600m to the threshold 24 at about a 100 feet. ( He probably kept on descending on the 22 ils gp) We were waiting for the touchdown in the grass, but he made a definite arrival on the piano keys!

[PBL]

The chatter is fun, but the safety questions come from safetypee and the article referenced by 76-er.

Originally Posted by safetypee

The safety concern is the reason as to how a safety margin of at least 3100 ft (6610 ft LDA – wet factor) was used up

when according to De Telegraaf the PF put it down where he should have.

Anyone who thinks this issue isn't worth addressing lives on a different planet from me.

PBL