BA Subsidiary - OpenSkies - Boeing 757 High Speed RTO -Wrong Flap Setting
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Double Oak, Texas
Age: 71
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My bad, each operator just has to purchase the performance numbers from Boeing for the various TO flap settings.
Last edited by SKS777FLYER; 23rd Sep 2010 at 08:14. Reason: spell
many of which are from people castigating the pilots for "not doing the right thing".
Back on thread, with an RTO above 80kts (I have no idea if this was above 80kts, but assume that 'high speed' would be) usually some kind of engineering inspection is required. I know zip about the above incident and even less about the 757. Just asking.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Age: 79
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meanwhile, a Ryanair aircraft diverts due to a birdstrike on take-off, and a long and heated discussion follows about whether the pilots took the correct action. That thread gets 42 replies from fewer viewings, many of which are from people castigating the pilots for "not doing the right thing".
Clueless people post to pprune. YAWN.
In this case someone screwed up, realised their mistake and rejected which was the RIGHT thing to do. Trying again before the tyres had cooled was not so clever. Nobody died.
In the Ryanair case the 737 is designed to fly on one engine so a birdstrike after V1 is no big deal. Fly the aircraft, do the engine out checklist, plan an appropriate diversion. They did the RIGHT thing.
Nobody died.
The difference is simple - the armchair wannabees travel low cost and have probably never heard of an obscure BA franchise operator who flies rich bankers between Paris and NY in opulant luxury at premium prices. Guess which grabs their attention ?.
Is water the standard agent for brake cooling/fire, or is it just convenient `pour les Pompiers`?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never heard of an airport fire drill where "fire service poured water over the heavily smoking wheels." Pouring water over hot magnesium wheels is not an approved method.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mistake made. Mistake recognised. Mistake resolved. Why all the fuss? That's after all why we have SOP's and the like.
Have you never made a mistake?
Time to move on me thinks.
Have you never made a mistake?
Time to move on me thinks.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Age: 79
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mistake made. Mistake recognised. Mistake resolved. Why all the fuss? That's after all why we have SOP's and the like.
Have you never made a mistake?
Time to move on me thinks.
Have you never made a mistake?
Time to move on me thinks.
The man who never made a mistrake never made anything.
Our job is to learn from both our own mistakes and those of others, SOPs are not just standard procedures, they are the checks and balances which should ensure that our mistakes are recognised and corrected before they become a problem.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TAG - is there still not a question of the second attempt at take-off? Suppose the plugs had blown at 120kts on that. Surely either there was insufficient cooling time/too much taxying OR the tables may be wrong?
Yes, the fire service at CDG might benefit from a look too. I always understood the shock loading on the wheels from cold water could be catastrophic.
Yes, the fire service at CDG might benefit from a look too. I always understood the shock loading on the wheels from cold water could be catastrophic.
From the OP.
No mention of actually attempting a TO.
Regarding water on hot wheels/brakes.
It seems that these days putting out a potential or actual brake/wheel fire on a loaded aircraft is more important than saving the wheels or anything in their way.
Personally witnessed a 777 brake fire extinguished with water. To be fair, the flames were licking the underside of the wing by the time the fire service got there so I can't say I blame em.
It was only when ATC advised the crew of heavy smoke from gear while they waited to make a second take off that six tires deflated (fuse plugs) and the fire service poured water over the heavily smoking wheels.
No mention of actually attempting a TO.
Regarding water on hot wheels/brakes.
It seems that these days putting out a potential or actual brake/wheel fire on a loaded aircraft is more important than saving the wheels or anything in their way.
Personally witnessed a 777 brake fire extinguished with water. To be fair, the flames were licking the underside of the wing by the time the fire service got there so I can't say I blame em.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Turin - I do not have access to a 757 QRH, but assuming it is SIMILAR to the 737,
When in caution zone, wheel fuse plugs may melt. Delay takeoff and inspect after one hour.
When in fuse plug melt zone, clear runway immediately. Unless required, do not set parking brake. Do not approach gear or attempt to taxi for one hour. Tire, wheel and brake replacement may be required
Of course you are correct in what the OP says, I am merely raising a metaphorical quizzical eyebrow due to the lack of information (hence my earlier question) since I would think it reasonable to assume they were in the 'caution' zone since 6 wheels blew? How would you have handled that?
The problem with water as I understand it is that the shock to the wheels can cause dramatic failure of the wheel assembly which with high pressure tyres can cause significant shrapnel as bits explode. I'm sure I saw a safety film once where bits went everywhere at very high speed. I'm sure a fireman will correct me.
When in caution zone, wheel fuse plugs may melt. Delay takeoff and inspect after one hour.
When in fuse plug melt zone, clear runway immediately. Unless required, do not set parking brake. Do not approach gear or attempt to taxi for one hour. Tire, wheel and brake replacement may be required
Of course you are correct in what the OP says, I am merely raising a metaphorical quizzical eyebrow due to the lack of information (hence my earlier question) since I would think it reasonable to assume they were in the 'caution' zone since 6 wheels blew? How would you have handled that?
The problem with water as I understand it is that the shock to the wheels can cause dramatic failure of the wheel assembly which with high pressure tyres can cause significant shrapnel as bits explode. I'm sure I saw a safety film once where bits went everywhere at very high speed. I'm sure a fireman will correct me.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Italy
Age: 77
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BOAC
Quite right.
I'm just trying to give credit where due as perhaps the fuse plugs melted as they were waiting. IE IAW QRH drill.
Regarding the wheels/brakes.
The effect of exploding wheels due to shock cooling seems to be secondary to the effects of an actual fire.
Too many recorded cases of casualties due to fire, not many due to shock cooled exploding tyres.
Quite right.
I'm just trying to give credit where due as perhaps the fuse plugs melted as they were waiting. IE IAW QRH drill.
Regarding the wheels/brakes.
The effect of exploding wheels due to shock cooling seems to be secondary to the effects of an actual fire.
Too many recorded cases of casualties due to fire, not many due to shock cooled exploding tyres.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Out there, somewhere
Age: 60
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May I ask again (as a pax who saw this aircraft from only about 50m away), when the plugs blow is it obvious?
I witnessed a fireman intermittently spraying a liquid over the wheels and all the tyres looked normally round. 3 fire engines were in attendance.
I'm perfectly prepared to accept that the tyres can appear inflated when they are not, but am just interested.
I witnessed a fireman intermittently spraying a liquid over the wheels and all the tyres looked normally round. 3 fire engines were in attendance.
I'm perfectly prepared to accept that the tyres can appear inflated when they are not, but am just interested.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: at the whim of people I've never met
Age: 46
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, the fire service at CDG might benefit from a look too.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Double Oak, Texas
Age: 71
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my 30 years of airline flying, I never saw jetliner wheels with known fuse plug deflations, so I have no direct sightings. On a multi wheel bogie, with just one deflation, I would think a cursory look might appear that all tires properly inflated. If all, or most plugs let go, the wheel rims are gonna drop right down to the tarmac on the deflated ones.
Did blow fuse plugs on an F4 Phantom once after taxi in. The rims settled onto the flightline, very noticable.
Did blow fuse plugs on an F4 Phantom once after taxi in. The rims settled onto the flightline, very noticable.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Forest
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fusible Plugs
On a 767 with Brake Temp indicators and carbon brakes, the temperature warning showed shortly after T/O (up to 6 IIRC). It cooled during the short flight, but was obviously going to cause problems at the other end, so necessary precautions were taken. After landing the temperature increased to max (9) but gradually cooled. When it got down to 3 and was approaching the “normal” range, the engineer and I went to stand down the fire cover. We were discussing the options and the engineer leant over to feel the wheel – but before his hand got there, the fusible plug blew and we both nearly shot through the wing tank with shock.
There was no expectation of another T/O until our problem (a sticky brake) had been solved, but what it did show was that a plug can blow even when the temperature is back in the acceptable range. (Are we ready for another try?
) Now, back to topic…
There was no expectation of another T/O until our problem (a sticky brake) had been solved, but what it did show was that a plug can blow even when the temperature is back in the acceptable range. (Are we ready for another try?
) Now, back to topic…
Guest
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: In the shadow of R101
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the event that the flaps were set incorrectly, if this had been noticed early enough in the take-off roll is it permissible to move the flap lever to the correct setting and carry on?
Or does that lead to confusion about V speeds etc?
Or does that lead to confusion about V speeds etc?