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Canadian Court Requires CVR Disclosure

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Canadian Court Requires CVR Disclosure

Old 21st Sep 2010, 14:05
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Feathers McGraw:

A quite disgraceful sequence of events in my opinion, the investigators should be ashamed of themselves.
I was not aware the gear switches were damaged, thus precluding a manual erase. It seems that the NTSB persecuted the crew as opposed to investigating them. I don't suppose industry undue influence over a government investigatory agency had anything to do with it....naw.
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Old 21st Sep 2010, 14:22
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125.227(f)

In the event of an accident or occurrence requiring immediate notification of the National Transportation Safety Board under 49 CFR part 830 of its regulations, which results in the termination of the flight, the certificate holder shall keep the recorded information for at least 60 days or, if requested by the Administrator or the Board, for a longer period. Information obtained from the record is used to assist in determining the cause of accidents or occurrences in connection with investigations under 49 CFR part 830. The Administrator does not use the record in any civil penalty or certificate action.
I appreciate that this is from the american rule book, I am assuming that the french/canadian FAR's are similarly written. So, my interpretation, is that there is nothing here that would actually prevent the information being passed to another authority/legal hearing, however, the Pilot's are protected from litigation from the FAA, I.E. ATC may be able to use the information to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they are to blame, and at the same time, the pilot's are protected from and litigation following this incident.
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Old 21st Sep 2010, 22:56
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[b]D'avy[/n], the way that reads to me is only the FAA doesn't use it for any punitive action...If the CVR/FDR data was released to a third party, then they are free to refer to the data as part of the legal process, be it a civil action, or, as happened in Australia not too long ago, the local copper's trying to charge a train driver for causing a derailment.

FWIW, I'm certainly not opposed to having CVR's (as we've now got them in some trains as a "trial"), or DFDR's, so long as the data can only be used as part of the accident investigation process. That a lawyer can now subpoena a CVR tape as part of an unrelated court case is deeply disturbing.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 05:10
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Let's make it clear: for unknown reasons pilots are very rarely sued and imprisoned in most jurisdictions even if they were a root cause of accident (90%+ of all accidents worldwide). Bus drivers, train drivers, truck drivers, ship captains are all doing the same job and they are indeed bearing full responsibility for their actions. In fact, ship captains, especially in the case of large ships, are bearing full responsibility even they are not a direct controls and in some cases even off-duty resting in their cabin. All of them a quite likely to serve a sentence in prison if found guilty.
All what pilots risk is their job? That's similar to McDonalds then...
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 09:24
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Time for us to brush up on our American Sign Speach, problem is you need both hands for a lot of the symbols, how long before vidio link comes to the flight deck? Anyone have any thoughts on this as it has I belive been proposed by at least one authority?
If you're really a commercial pilot, please tell me this was posted on a bad night. There is really so much wrong here that I don't even want to think about it...
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 11:47
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In that case just dont think! But you have proberbly mastered that already! {it must be awfull to go through life with no sense of humor} And yes, if you read my public profile you will see that I have flown a little bit, still doing it in fact, now take a deep breath and relax, OK?
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 19:06
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ATC tape

What about the ATC tape ?

They want to prove there was someone in the jumpseat ?

The CVR is for the cause of the accident and for the TSB.

Not for defending personal interests and in lawsuits
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 20:06
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This is a very tricky topic as a degree of confidentiality is an important element in open and honest reporting for flight safety purposes.

However, a blanket ban on using CVR/FDR readouts could lead to potential injustices. A few years ago I successfully defended an atpl holder on reckless endangerment charges where a single line from the FDR printout (My god it took ages to find it) confirmed everything the pilot said about the engine power parameters on the particular flight. The CAA did not believe his assertions and nor would the jury in all likelihood until presented with the evidence in black and white.
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Old 22nd Sep 2010, 22:01
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Legal...once again, that case wasn't civil litigation, but most likely enforcement action...

Did anyone notice that the CVR's from the 9/11 flts were not released to the public?...only the families got to hear them...now the TRANSCRIPTS are a whole other situation...
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 01:29
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DownIn3Green:

Did anyone notice that the CVR's from the 9/11 flts were not released to the public?...only the families got to hear them...now the TRANSCRIPTS are a whole other situation...
The original, never to change, agreement between ALPA and the FAA and NTSB was that the actual recordings would never, ever be released. (circa 1964)

Bad mistake trusting government agencies.

Worse mistake trusting the courts to honor such agreements.

As a new F/O in 1964 I flew with captains that, although they wouldn't pull the CVR CB, they had a great device to defeat the area mic. In retrospect, they were probably right....sadly.
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 01:49
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Arpster...once again we seem to agree...

Recordings are never to be released for all of the reasons all ready mentioned on this thread...

However, once the transcripts are used in the hearing, they become a part of the pulbic domain...

There's a big difference between reading on "paper" the "last words" (i.e-"We're $crewed...Good-by") and actually listening to the words spoken by the deceased flight crew...

I know some recordings are available on the web, and IMHO that's not right...PERIOD!!!

As far as your Captain having a "great device" to defeat the effectiveness of the FDR...I think I had a pretty good way as well, if needed, (which thankfully I never did in 24+ yrs, 11 in the Left Seat)...a very seasoned Cap't showed me that one...
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 09:36
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DownInThreeGreen:

As far as your Captain having a "great device" to defeat the effectiveness of the FDR...I think I had a pretty good way as well, if needed, (which thankfully I never did in 24+ yrs, 11 in the Left Seat)...a very seasoned Cap't showed me that one...
I think you meant CVR, not FDR. The technique defeated only the area mike, not the VHF comm or interphone channels. In that way no one could be accused of pulling the C.B.

I don't believe anyone ever felt the transcripts wouldn't end up in court on occasion. But, the rules in the U.S. greatly limit them as evidence and the NTSB employees are exempt from testifying about their content. Only the parade of so-called experts can make such testimony which is often easily rebutted by other experts.

It's the actual recordings that were supposed to be never, ever released.

Moral: never trust government "promises." Even though their intentions may have been good at the inception, time tends to pour a load of road pavement down into dark places.

I never defeated an area mic when I was flying PIC. I felt it served no useful purpose and could serve to my detriment under the "right" circumstances. In fact, if something went wrong that was known to be a problem it provided an opportunity to make brief editorial comments, which could take the investigation in a different direction.
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 10:47
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I seem to recall that the plastic cork from a cheap Champagne that we served fit niceley over the CAM back in those days.
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 12:44
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It's the actual recordings that were supposed to be never, ever released.
I think that you will find that the words are not that explicit and even then only apply to the NTSB.

From memory, I can't recall a US accident release since the Delta B727 accident in Dallas and that wasn't released to the public by the NTSB.
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 14:03
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Spooky 2:

The red plastic cannon plug protector was a perfect fit.
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 14:05
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lomapeseo:

From memory, I can't recall a US accident release since the Delta B727 accident in Dallas and that wasn't released to the public by the NTSB.
Actual tape? Transcripts have always been released.

I worked on two air carrier accidents and we were not permitted to hear the actual recording. Only the CVR group had access to the recording.
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 14:14
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From the NTSB's website today:

"A CVR committee usually consisting of members from the NTSB, FAA, operator of the aircraft, manufacturer of the airplane, manufacturer of the engines, and the pilots union, is formed to listen to the recording. This committee creates a written transcript of the CVR audio to be used during the investigation. FAA air traffic control tapes with their associated time codes are used to help determine the local standard time of one or more events during the accident sequence. These times are applied to the transcript, providing a local time for every event on the transcript. More precise timing for critical events can be obtained using sound spectrum software. The transcript, containing all pertinent portions of the recording, can be released to the public at the time of the Safety Board's public hearing.

The CVR recordings are treated differently than the other factual information obtained in an accident investigation. Due to the highly sensitive nature of the verbal communications inside the cockpit, Congress has required that the Safety Board not release any part of a CVR audio recording. Because of this sensitivity, a high degree of security is provided for the CVR audio and its transcript. The content and timing of release of the written transcript are strictly regulated: under federal law, transcripts of pertinent portions of cockpit voice recordings are released at a Safety Board public hearing on the accident or, if no hearing is held, when a majority of the factual reports are made public."

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 15:01
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Actual tape? Transcripts have always been released.

I worked on two air carrier accidents and we were not permitted to hear the actual recording. Only the CVR group had access to the recording.
Apologies for the confusion. I meant the actual recordings, not the transcripts.

The NTSB has sometimes permitted " sanctioned (by the CVR group )transcribed snippits to be released to the public even before the official release at a hearing months later. examples: Valujet and TWA800.

A lot of this is protocol. I really don't think that there is specified punishment other than losing your job. Or worse yet, incurring the wrath of the pilot community.
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 16:03
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'Two pilots' unions, the Air Line Pilots Association and the Air Canada Pilots Association, representing nearly 60,000 pilots around the world, intervened in the case, arguing the cockpit is their inner sanctum, a private workspace comparable to an office.'


Translated: Because hiding the truth is one way in which we can cover up our mistakes...part of a whole spectrum of techniques to garner job security at all costs...

-----

People who are good at what they do, don't mind noon day light microscopic scrutiny....

I am personally not for Orwellian surveillance in the cockpit, but if that is what it's going to take to make an airliner safe...not through good hiring practices, not through professionalism, but treating adults behaving badly like little kids that need to be watched 24/7...so be it....
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Old 23rd Sep 2010, 17:25
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johns7022;
Translated: Because hiding the truth is one way in which we can cover up our mistakes...part of a whole spectrum of techniques to garner job security at all costs...

-----

People who are good at what they do, don't mind noon day light microscopic scrutiny....
Please read through the thread before commenting. This view is naive and uncomprehending of the many issues involved.

PJ2
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