BA pax tried to halt 777 take-off after taxiing error
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Airclues - thank you, a misread on my part.
A simple "yes" I would have understood - but I read this reply as only describing the "underway" state in which I had absolutely no interest. The addition of "then" or "but" would have made it crystal.
Yes, once underway the PNF handles the R/T
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Quote below from the Wikipedia page on the Tenerife disaster.
Captain van Zanten interrupted the co-pilot's readback with the comment "We're going". As noted in the NOVA documentary, Meurs chose not to embarrass his superior a second time by stating that they still did not have the proper clearance to take off.
411A, are you honestly saying that you'd prefer this situation to manifest itself again? I make no apology for banging on about CRM as quite simply, it saves lives. It's not about 'co-pilots' getting above themselves, it's about doing what is right and putting our egos in check when we make mistakes (and don't bull**** me for a second that you've never dropped a clanger!). Fortunately I fly with a bunch of great people who do just that and correct my daily mistakes in a cheerful manner. Demonstrating to me exactly the type of captain I want to be when I grow up
'It would be well for First Officers to actually realise just whom is in charge of the airplane...and for those slightly challanged, a hint....it ain't them.'
It certainly isn't and I've every respect for the position. But nor does your signing of the tech log confer on you any right to ignore inquiries and assistance from the competent professionals with whom you work. You have no right to potentially cause an accident just to sate your seemingly fragile ego.
Captain van Zanten interrupted the co-pilot's readback with the comment "We're going". As noted in the NOVA documentary, Meurs chose not to embarrass his superior a second time by stating that they still did not have the proper clearance to take off.
411A, are you honestly saying that you'd prefer this situation to manifest itself again? I make no apology for banging on about CRM as quite simply, it saves lives. It's not about 'co-pilots' getting above themselves, it's about doing what is right and putting our egos in check when we make mistakes (and don't bull**** me for a second that you've never dropped a clanger!). Fortunately I fly with a bunch of great people who do just that and correct my daily mistakes in a cheerful manner. Demonstrating to me exactly the type of captain I want to be when I grow up
'It would be well for First Officers to actually realise just whom is in charge of the airplane...and for those slightly challanged, a hint....it ain't them.'
It certainly isn't and I've every respect for the position. But nor does your signing of the tech log confer on you any right to ignore inquiries and assistance from the competent professionals with whom you work. You have no right to potentially cause an accident just to sate your seemingly fragile ego.
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411A, my dear sir, whilst I realise that a lot of your comments are tongue in cheek, why not come clean and tell us how you educate your F/Os to become competent future captains?
When they have achieved their Command rating but not eligable for Command just yet, and it's their turn to fly (PF) I put 'em in the LHS, and have them make all the decisions.
And yes, I'm a TRI/TRE....and am allowed to complete the above.
In this way they get the picture, early on, make no mistake.
OK with you, sir?
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Ground operations are a high risk environment.
The most challenging aspect of my job is getting to the airport and then running the gantlet necessary to position myself in left front seat. The next most difficult part is getting the jet off the gate and to the assigned & appropriate runway. Then there is the task of getting the jet off the runway and to the gate. If I am going to get into trouble it is probably going to happen when conducting those ground operations. Does that parallel anybody elses experience? For me, under most circumstances, ground operations are the most hazard packed and threatening phase of my job.
I was surprised when I read some of the preceding comments that seem to relegate taxiing the jet as a non-event.
At our airline the Captains job is the same whether or not they are the pilot flying or not; FOs dont taxi or park the jet.
I was surprised when I read some of the preceding comments that seem to relegate taxiing the jet as a non-event.
At our airline the Captains job is the same whether or not they are the pilot flying or not; FOs dont taxi or park the jet.
Last edited by Northbeach; 2nd Sep 2010 at 20:27.
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We are flying in a virtual world
Since JAR OPS was introduced an ATPL became a Micy Mouse kind of exercise.
Pilots no longer have a feeling with the aircrafts performance.
Basically one needs to nominate a take off alternate for every departure. This includes to have a look at the runway lenght of the departure airway in case of a return.
In this case it would have forced the crew to have a close look at the performance and the runway lenght.
But we are living in a world were numbers spitted out by a computer are no longer cross-checked with common sence and basic knowledge of performance.
If I am right BA had to teach their crews how to interpreted a weather radar display after a B 777 flew into a TS at high level, BA had to teach their crews how to use the fuel system on a B 747 after the LAX-LHR incident ..... what's next?
By the way .... can any BA genius explain to me how you recognise a slower than normal acceleration on take off ???
Pilots no longer have a feeling with the aircrafts performance.
Basically one needs to nominate a take off alternate for every departure. This includes to have a look at the runway lenght of the departure airway in case of a return.
In this case it would have forced the crew to have a close look at the performance and the runway lenght.
But we are living in a world were numbers spitted out by a computer are no longer cross-checked with common sence and basic knowledge of performance.
If I am right BA had to teach their crews how to interpreted a weather radar display after a B 777 flew into a TS at high level, BA had to teach their crews how to use the fuel system on a B 747 after the LAX-LHR incident ..... what's next?
By the way .... can any BA genius explain to me how you recognise a slower than normal acceleration on take off ???
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Does that parallel anybody elses experience?
what's next?
Sorry, if accidens/incidents are to be minimised, nothing else will do.
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411A,
being an FO, I must admit that whilst I accept that the Captain is ultimately responsible I still feel it is my duty to speak up whenever I feel something is not right. It has nothing to do with me thinking the Captain is a bad pilot, I make mistakes as does everyone. What is important is how you deal with the mistakes.
Your arrogance is incredible. For you, a person on a rumour network, to try and advise BA on changing it's policy is not only arrogant but in my opinion stupid. It's safety record is outstanding as are it's crews.
As an irrelivant FO I am eternally gratefull I will never have to fly with you and one day when I hopefully gain my command I will never treat my FO's with such disrespect.
So, with your given system of the FO never taxiing the aircraft, what then happens when they gain their command? They have to taxi an aircraft in often unfamiliar airports and what's more - the person next to them is LESS experienced. Well done!
being an FO, I must admit that whilst I accept that the Captain is ultimately responsible I still feel it is my duty to speak up whenever I feel something is not right. It has nothing to do with me thinking the Captain is a bad pilot, I make mistakes as does everyone. What is important is how you deal with the mistakes.
Your arrogance is incredible. For you, a person on a rumour network, to try and advise BA on changing it's policy is not only arrogant but in my opinion stupid. It's safety record is outstanding as are it's crews.
As an irrelivant FO I am eternally gratefull I will never have to fly with you and one day when I hopefully gain my command I will never treat my FO's with such disrespect.
So, with your given system of the FO never taxiing the aircraft, what then happens when they gain their command? They have to taxi an aircraft in often unfamiliar airports and what's more - the person next to them is LESS experienced. Well done!
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...what then happens when they gain their command?
Simples.
...to try and advise BA on changing it's policy is not only arrogant but in my opinion stupid. It's safety record is outstanding as are it's crews.
) it would appear that the concerned BA crew was not exactly paying attention to details.
OMG, what an absolute surprise.
An interesting thread with a bit of thread drift but nevertheless looking at the issues from percieved different corners.
I wonder had this been Ryanair would we be already on page 25 with claims of poor skills, charging for toilets, crew paying to fly etc ad nauseum, thankfully we have not degenerated into that.
Humans make mistakes, some big, some small and in 99.99% of cases thankfully involving air crew nobody notices and hopefully somebody learns a little bit. Computers are great until you unplug them.
On a crew with this level of experience its a "oh ****" moment that puts all future career prospects on hold while everybody digs the life out of it.
Ultimately there is a responsibility by the airport operator to get it right as the tiny slip up almost has a catastrophic ending.
As a poster has said its the easy ones that you get caught with.
It will sadly not be the last incident like this on an airport, next time I hope for same outcome as the BA one.
Whatever else they did they still got it in the air and underpants can be changed.
I wonder had this been Ryanair would we be already on page 25 with claims of poor skills, charging for toilets, crew paying to fly etc ad nauseum, thankfully we have not degenerated into that.
Humans make mistakes, some big, some small and in 99.99% of cases thankfully involving air crew nobody notices and hopefully somebody learns a little bit. Computers are great until you unplug them.
On a crew with this level of experience its a "oh ****" moment that puts all future career prospects on hold while everybody digs the life out of it.
Ultimately there is a responsibility by the airport operator to get it right as the tiny slip up almost has a catastrophic ending.
As a poster has said its the easy ones that you get caught with.
It will sadly not be the last incident like this on an airport, next time I hope for same outcome as the BA one.
Whatever else they did they still got it in the air and underpants can be changed.
however statements like...
... as well as the tone of your posts mean that you come over as, ahem, overbearing,
A co-pilot is a co-pilot period.
"A Captain is a Captain period."
Would that seem "overbearing" or "correct"?
I have to agree with 411 here (and that isn't usual). A company pays for a pilot to fly an aircraft. They expect that pilot to get the aircraft from "A" to "B". If it is a complex aircraft, they hire a junior pilot as "load relief" - but the pilot hired to get the aircraft from "A" to "B" is the same guy.
I must admit that whilst I accept that the Captain is ultimately responsible I still feel it is my duty to speak up whenever I feel something is not right. It has nothing to do with me thinking the Captain is a bad pilot, I make mistakes as does everyone. What is important is how you deal with the mistakes.
Understand that is the limit of your role, unless you are convinced your (and the passenger's) lives are in danger. In the vast majority of cases, the Captain knows the situation, has seen it many times before, and hasn't the time (at THAT time) to explain it - after all, they are the only pilot the company is paying to be responsible for the flight.
Yes - there are occasional guys who have slipped through the system, have made Captain and are still prepared to risk the aircraft to push a bad approach. The FO's job is to report them, before they become a risk - not to struggle for control on a single approach.
The problem with "complete role reversal", ie taxi, take-off etc etc is that the FO thinks that they know the entire job. You don't know the job until you look to the left, and see nothing but your reflection looking back at you.
I must admit to not reading the whole report but looking at the chart the airport seems quite simple from the point of view of layout, taxi routes etc.
Therein lies the trap methinks. If you're taxiing around a "complex" airport then you're much more likely to carry out a thorough briefing and also be monitoring carefully where you are. Of course this should apply wherever you are.
Therein lies the trap methinks. If you're taxiing around a "complex" airport then you're much more likely to carry out a thorough briefing and also be monitoring carefully where you are. Of course this should apply wherever you are.
@fdr: when the hell did that happen?
you mean by 30 as in three zero tons???? has anyone investigated this?
Best regards
AN2 Driver
Coming on top of KAL's deliberately overweight takeoff in an A330 out of Zurich by a similar amount... what the heck.
Best regards
AN2 Driver
As an ex BA pilot I agree with the 'What if this had been RyanAir?' comments.
I think it is great bedtime reading for everyone. It is such a simple example of the Swiss cheese analogy and I have to say, I thought 'There but for the grace etc.'
I have certainly been in a position where I should have spoken up but didn't. I have also spoken up and been wrong.
We are not paid to protect our fragile little egos. We are paid not to crash. So speak up; be wrong; it's only your ego; not a fireball.
Just in from pub - hope the foregoing makes sense and isn't too hectoring.
I think it is great bedtime reading for everyone. It is such a simple example of the Swiss cheese analogy and I have to say, I thought 'There but for the grace etc.'
I have certainly been in a position where I should have spoken up but didn't. I have also spoken up and been wrong.
We are not paid to protect our fragile little egos. We are paid not to crash. So speak up; be wrong; it's only your ego; not a fireball.
Just in from pub - hope the foregoing makes sense and isn't too hectoring.
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Hmmm, I do fly a Cessna Citation with RAAS. Apart from other things, if I`d try to takeoff from a runway less (rather TODA) than 4000 ft it yells at me ("short runway"). 777 hasnīt got that thingy?
Next, we have the Jepp plate on the MFD with a little airplane on it showing our position. 777 hasnīt got that?
Next, we have the Jepp plate on the MFD with a little airplane on it showing our position. 777 hasnīt got that?
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It is my firm belief that 'role reversal' is just fine whilst flying, however, taxiing around on the airfield, be it large (and complicated, with many possible taxi errors) or small (same problem...as is quite evident here) should be done by the Captain.
This is not the first time BA has had this problem, nor will it be the last.
This is not the first time BA has had this problem, nor will it be the last.
Your attitude is appalling, which is, no doubt why you reside in a desert, and work in one, flying a heap of junk, that most people retired years ago. I pity any FO that has to fly with you.
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Back to the original thread... and how do we help prevent this from happening in the future.
I think we are long overdue for a display of taxi charts and current aircraft position on an MFD while taxying the airplane. Maybe even program the taxi route so it highlights the route to follow.
It is my understanding that many corporate jets have this great tool. Airliners are overdue....
I think we are long overdue for a display of taxi charts and current aircraft position on an MFD while taxying the airplane. Maybe even program the taxi route so it highlights the route to follow.
It is my understanding that many corporate jets have this great tool. Airliners are overdue....
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...."role reversal" with how we conduct operations in BA, specifically, the monitored approach. It works fine (I appreciate a lot of other airlines don't use it) and at least gives you both something of interest to do in the flight.
..and at least gives you both something of interest to do in the flight.
From the report on this very serious incident, it certainly seems that BA pilots are so busy congratulating each other on a job well done
while at the same time a few of 'em are unable to determine just where on the airport they truly are...
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Some comments and some questions: First, the trainee controller does not seem like the brightest bulb on the Xmas tree. A simple reply like "You are at Bravo, not Alpha" would have been good. Second, as someone has already pointed out, the mistaken identity of the intersections was almost a weekly event, yet the supervisor left the trainee controller without supervision, and the airport authorities had not done anything in terms of signage to stop these repeated errors.
Now for my questions: What percentage of professional air carrier pilots would have backtracked Rwy 07 for a full length departure? An extra 400m is, well, an extra 400m! Also, was the crew's decision to use flaps 20 made early in the process, or was that selection made after the captain commented that the runway looked short? How much benefit was derived by powering up while braked? If this had not been done, how much extra runway might have been needed before the mains left the ground?
Now for my questions: What percentage of professional air carrier pilots would have backtracked Rwy 07 for a full length departure? An extra 400m is, well, an extra 400m! Also, was the crew's decision to use flaps 20 made early in the process, or was that selection made after the captain commented that the runway looked short? How much benefit was derived by powering up while braked? If this had not been done, how much extra runway might have been needed before the mains left the ground?