Congress tightens requirements for airline pilots

[Golf_Seirra]

We have all flown with dodgy crew, be they on the left or right.....had to wipe your partners backside in various situations.

That said, I guess what the real issue is what makes a good competant safe pilot....I don't know......still trying to learn that.

What I do regret is never having flown piston twins...does that make me a worse pilot? Not sure, but from the guys I respect, does feel like a missed out on an opporrunity to learn a heck load.......

[NephewBob]

ATP Rating Required

Actually, it is not just an hour requirement.

"Of particular significance is that the legislation cleared by Congress will require all Part 121 pilots to hold an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, which demands that a pilot be at least 23 years old, pass a test demonstrating knowledge of the aircraft category and class he or she will be operating and have accumulated a minimum of 1,500 flight hr. First officers currently must have only an instrument rating and commercial pilot certificate requiring just 250 hr."
-ATW

Not too many moons ago, (ok, 15-20 years ago) airlines pre-requisite for hiring was an ATP, even to sit sideways in a 72' especially in the US. The only way to get the average 3000 hrs to hire on the jets, was part 135 carriers, and that required 1300 hrs with a CPL (and other reqs) just to qualify for flying night freight in a twin Cessna (for example) Most non-miltary pilots have dropped parachutists, flown pipelines/powerlines, instructed, banner towed etc. etc., & when they did "upgrade" to 'air carriers' many flew single pilot, even turboprops, before getting on the bottom (seniority) of a big one.

Unlike today, a CPL in the right seat on International sectors simply did not exist.

[poina]

airbus girl,
Seems to me like you should drop the attitude and realize most of us paid our dues and flew as flight instructors, air taxi, single pilot IFR, commuter, and my personal favorite night freight.
Training cadets is no walk in the park, most of the time is spent on endless repetition of correct rotation, paperwork, fmc setup, flows, xwind landing, correct radio technique, etc. In other words NORMAL PROCEDURES. After 100 hours of this perhaps we could move on to abnormals/emergencies. We also had safety FO's until the capt released them, and that was in case I died not the trainee.

Now a cadet has been flying with one of these so called "old school" pilots for 250 hours being spoon fed every question, scenario, normal/ abnormal/emer. checklist, seems like a line check shouldn't be too tough.

Now we jump to the sim where the cadet has spent many, many recent hours and is young with a good memory, so things go OK, because after all we're not looking for brain surgeons.

These "old school" pilots held you by the hand and got you through training so maybe Thanks is more appropriate.

[protectthehornet]

nephew bob

thanks for clarifying that it is an ATP you need and not just 1500 hours. By the time I had all the night, instrument , XC etc for my atp, I had a total of about 1700 hours...

and back in my day, the FAA went through your logbook and made sure (as well as they could) that it wasn't P51 time.

I did bank checks, instructing and all sorts of crap...I'am sure you understand

regards

[DFC]

They are saying they are as good as more experienced pilots when faced with emergencies, unusual situations and handling problems. Because they are passing them for their sim checks.

Not at all.

A candidate will pass the test / check provided that they meet the required standard.

One candidate will easlily meet or exceed the required standard one candidate will work hard to meet the required standard.

Of course a pilot can have 10's of thousands of hours but be unable to function correctly in a multi-crew environment. Getting an ATP with 1500 hours in a cessna 152 does what exactly?

[Contacttower]

I have a question as a curious private pilot...in the US are there enough jobs to go round with operators other than commercial air transport for pilots who wish to progress to the airlines but don't have enough hours yet? Or is this likely to cause a shortage of airline pilots?

Certainly I think if this was ever introduced in Europe the problem would be that there simply aren't enough aviation jobs lower down the ladder so to speak for pilots to perform before gaining enough hours.

[Airbus Girl]

you are naive...if check captains fail too many people on check rides they will soon lose their job as a check captain...

It appears you are saying that check Captains should just pass sub-standard pilots purely to meet the quota? Or lose their job?

[Errol Sinclair]

Sadly there IS an element of pressure to pass crew when in times of shortage. The pressure is relatively subtle but it is there i'm sorry to say.

As for the 1500 hour rule - far too simplistic in my view. Its got to be about ability. I see some sh*t hot 200/400/600 hour guys (wish i could be that good!) and some not so good 3000 hour guys. Its quality not quantity - as I always remind the wife

[protectthehornet]

you got that right...at least in essence.

dfc...multi crew environment...C152 etc.

do you even know how to obtain an ATP?

[protectthehornet]

contact tower

you make an interesting point.

if its hard to build time to 1500 hours (really get an ATP), then the pilots who are not truly dedicated will leave, hopefully the remaining pilots will be very good.

and that is another plus!

[md80fanatic]

"Getting an ATP with 1500 hours in a cessna 152 does what exactly?"

Do you know exactly how this makes an SLF feel to read replies like this?
May I ask a question? What does "wax on ..... wax off" have to do with karate?
Answer this, and you will also have answered your own question.

[protectthehornet]

DFC

I am intrigued by your quesiton regarding cessna 152/atp. first off, you have to demonstrate flying retractable gear plane and preferably a multi engine plane so the C152 wouldn't qualify.

also

if you actually did fly a C152 through all sorts of flying adventures, you have flown an underpowered, little piece of $%^& and came through it alive...with minimum instruments and no autopilot. You will have great respect for weather, mountains, and the sky.

if you did nothing but fly a sleek jet, with all sorts of ''gizmos'' you will always feel invulnerable.

better to respect the sky always, regardless of the type of plane you fly, then to think you are invulnerable ina sleek super jet.

[DFC]

protectthehornet,

You have missed the point - just like the people who think this new rule is going to change anything.

One does not have to fly a retractable to get an FAA ATP (Aeroplane) and "preferably" is not to be found in the requirements.

However, the regulations aside, you seem to assume that 1500 hours in a C152 would involve;

all sorts of flying adventures

but the sad fact is that in the USA, two pilots can fly together in a C152 and both log pilot in command time. They can do that all within 5 miles of the base airfield - never out of sight of home.

That really helps build up the hours!!!

So I hope you can see that using hours as a basis for anything is meaningless - unless you put some extra (above FAA requirements) things in place.

Finally, if a pilot can't resognise and recover from a stall with 250 hours, 15,000 hours of sitting in the right seat logging PIC time while the qualified pilot in the left seat flies and does the same is not going to change that.

[Lonewolf_50]

I am trying to understand where Congress came up with 1500 hours.

Why not 500?
Why not 750?
Why not 1000?

Why the sixfold increase. Has anyone explained this? Was a series of airline industry experts/consultants hired to arrive at a figure that would point to "X" benefit?

Do any of you know where that figure came from?

I like this bit, and wonder what the details of implementation will be.

The bill also boosts training, mandates the creation of a national database of pilot records and aims to reduce pilot fatigue by directing the FAA to update rules on pilot duty hours.

[p51guy]

Most pilots with 1500 hrs didn't stay within 5 miles of their home airport. 1500 hrs is not enough time to be very qualified for an airline job but is a lot better than 250 hrs. Training hours are different than PIC hours. Pilots need to get experience on their own to gain experience and confidence. Always having a pilot controlling what you are doing doesn't accomplish this.

The airlines that use cheap pilots out of flight school know they are compromising safety but prefer the cheap labor. It bites them a lot but they still do it. Captains can't be expected to become flight instructors because the airline doesn't want to pay for qualified FO's.

[tunawholesalers]

I think this is a good step for the industry for future pay and rest. However, in contradiction to that, i have to say that as a 3000+hr commercial pilot - i still rely on the techniques i was taught as a PPL.

IMHO, it doesnt matter how much experience you have as long as you are taught well!

It still amazes me to this day how many experienced captains dont know about the method -

AVIATE
NAVIGATE
COMMUNICATE

Absolute basics to me....and if you dont know it at 200hrs then youre not likely to know it at 1500hrs.

Quality not quantity!

Also, can i just say to the ex instructors who now work as airline pilots - if youre not a trainer then dont try and train...leave that for weekends when youre instructing!


Well Done USA.

[p51guy]

Yes we are all aware of Aviate, Navigate and Communicate but it doesn't solve all your problems. Experience lets you use good judgement to know once the problem you are having happens you can get yourself out of it safely. 250 hr pilots will have a big problem with that. They haven't been there before. Experience will be your best friend when things go bad.

[MarcK]

the sad fact is that in the USA, two pilots can fly together in a C152 and both log pilot in command time. They can do that all within 5 miles of the base airfield - never out of sight of home.

Not quite:

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.
...

[protectthehornet]

forgive me, but don't you have to take the ATP test in a plane with a controllable prop and retractable gear? while you can take some of the test in a fixed gear/fixed prop plane, you have to demonstrate the above retract and controllable prop.

of course as a practical matter, a single engine ATP is as valuble as a condom with multiple leaks.

most would get it in a twin engine plane...and of course you could get a type rating and an atp in some larger plane like a small jet...more worthwhile.


AS far as logginf of PIC time...an instructor GIVING instruction is allowed to log the time as PIC...and he should. unless you have instructed you don't know how demanding it is.

[aterpster]

protectthelment:

forgive me, but don't you have to take the ATP test in a plane with a controllable prop and retractable gear? while you can take some of the test in a fixed gear/fixed prop plane, you have to demonstrate the above retract and controllable prop.

I'm not up on those regs. But, way back when I took my first ATP ride in an Aero Commander 500. Then, a few months later I took it again in a Cessna 182 because I wanted the "merit badge." (We had nothing better to do in those days of 25 cents per gallon av gas.)

All my later airline rating rides were observed by FAA inspectors who cut the paper work after the ride. On one rating the "friendly" looked at my surrendered certificate and proclaimed, "You have an ASEL under your ATP, that is not possible!"

My instructor and I convinced him to call Airmen's Records in OKC before he issued my temporary.