Airbus subsidies illegal
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Forgot to mention this one too:
European Governments should withdraw aid to Airbus when the US Government no-longer allows its airlines to be protected by Chapetr11!
Can open-worms everywhere!
Steve
European Governments should withdraw aid to Airbus when the US Government no-longer allows its airlines to be protected by Chapetr11!
Can open-worms everywhere!
Steve
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Can open-worms everywhere!
If the USA is worried about anti-competative practice then maybe they should look at all the Military Equipment (such as Body Armour and Helmets) which is manufactured at 25c per hour by prisoners in US Jails. Approx 80% of all IPE equipment manufactured in the USA comes from Federal Penetentiaries.
So, is Chapter 11 illegal? Is having prisioners work illegal?
Or maybe you want to take a shot at this question I posed earlier.
So you're suggesting that a legal action by one justifies an illegal action by another?
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It does not matter who won or who lost. The World Trade Organization has no real power to compel either Boeing or Airbus stop doing what they have done in the past.
Addtionally, the WTO cannot levy fines if either company wants to continues doing what they have been ordered to stop doing. Like most civil trials the only winner...the lawyers.
Addtionally, the WTO cannot levy fines if either company wants to continues doing what they have been ordered to stop doing. Like most civil trials the only winner...the lawyers.
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"Forgot to mention this one too:
European Governments should withdraw aid to Airbus when the US Government no-longer allows its airlines to be protected by Chapetr11!
Can open-worms everywhere!"
Seems you don't remember that Airbus was quite happy to provide USAir with exit financing ( and receiving substantial equipment orders in return ) when that carrier was in Chapter 11.
European Governments should withdraw aid to Airbus when the US Government no-longer allows its airlines to be protected by Chapetr11!
Can open-worms everywhere!"
Seems you don't remember that Airbus was quite happy to provide USAir with exit financing ( and receiving substantial equipment orders in return ) when that carrier was in Chapter 11.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 28th Sep 2012 at 18:49.
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I have been a free market capitalist since the 80s. Unfortunately, when governments allow 8 or so healthy commercial aircraft manufacturors to merge down so only two manufacturors on the planet are left standing, free market capitalism no longer functions and EVERYONE gets burned.
You have heard of financial institutions that are too big to fail and the problems this causes; well, now we also have two aircraft manufacturors that are too big and each should be broken up!
How come overcapacity in the industry has lead to countless carrier issues including bankruptcy, restructuring, insolvencies, liquidations, downsizing, etc, but the aircraft manufacturors and leasing companies are largely left unscathed?
You have heard of financial institutions that are too big to fail and the problems this causes; well, now we also have two aircraft manufacturors that are too big and each should be broken up!
How come overcapacity in the industry has lead to countless carrier issues including bankruptcy, restructuring, insolvencies, liquidations, downsizing, etc, but the aircraft manufacturors and leasing companies are largely left unscathed?
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@ Robert Bartsch
I think you've got your "overcapacities" mixed up. The layoffs, bankruptcies you speak of were airline problems. Easy(ish) access to finance led to orders to the manufacturers, who obliged - so who's to blame there, apart from the financial optimism of past years?
As far as manufacturers go, the capital needed and risk involved grew excessive for many, if not most, of the 8 manufacturers you mention, like Douglas (pre their takeover in MDD guise of Boeing) or Lockheed. In Europe manufacturers were able to continue with smaller aircraft, like the 146 or ATR, but cooperation was judged to be the answer for bigger stuff (as in the military field as well).
I won't descend into the political field, but just mention that governments (including the US) don't feel comfortable when big-ticket items like airliners can only be obtained from one country whose aircraft builders wield considerable open (and covert) influence with their government.
As far as manufacturers go, the capital needed and risk involved grew excessive for many, if not most, of the 8 manufacturers you mention, like Douglas (pre their takeover in MDD guise of Boeing) or Lockheed. In Europe manufacturers were able to continue with smaller aircraft, like the 146 or ATR, but cooperation was judged to be the answer for bigger stuff (as in the military field as well).
I won't descend into the political field, but just mention that governments (including the US) don't feel comfortable when big-ticket items like airliners can only be obtained from one country whose aircraft builders wield considerable open (and covert) influence with their government.
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Just the value of the governments picking up the health coverage of all the European workers is in the billions of dollars...
Wasnīt something similar just announced quietly by the US?
Therefore the US will do the same as Europe, pick up huge tabs for health coverage!
Subsidy? or human right?
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Chapter 11 is not illegal but is an unfair advantage that the yanks would complain about should it be used in europe. Boeing is arrogant now as the complaint filed by EU againts the illegal subsidies / research being done by Nasa and Pentagon is not issued yet. When it is published and Boeing busted, they just go for a negotiated solution. For info, we are using boeing planes in the french army.
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What is wrong with Chapter 11 reorganization under U.S. law?
....makes perfect "cents" to me if a troubled company must prove to the court that creditors would be better off in re-organizing the company's finances rather than to liquidate the net assets of the company in a fire sale.
The only bad thing I see is that upon emergence, the "new" company typically has a clean balanace sheet with little or no debt and that other companies in the same businesss who have not reorganized may be adversely impacted. Frankly, that is the way capitalism is supposed to work, however.
I don't see any reason why the world needs only two manufacturors. If you think there is true market competition for commercial birds, I have a bridge I would like you to buy.
....makes perfect "cents" to me if a troubled company must prove to the court that creditors would be better off in re-organizing the company's finances rather than to liquidate the net assets of the company in a fire sale.
The only bad thing I see is that upon emergence, the "new" company typically has a clean balanace sheet with little or no debt and that other companies in the same businesss who have not reorganized may be adversely impacted. Frankly, that is the way capitalism is supposed to work, however.
I don't see any reason why the world needs only two manufacturors. If you think there is true market competition for commercial birds, I have a bridge I would like you to buy.
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let's see....berlin was destroyed by B17's
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And please note that the US did not come to Spain to save us from the nazis. No one came!. It was easier to use our bases again the Russian threat. So please stop using that 
. I also have good american friends, but they sometimes (as some of us here too) tend to stop thinking by themselves.
Fight the common enemy: Politicians!
. I also have good american friends, but they sometimes (as some of us here too) tend to stop thinking by themselves.Fight the common enemy: Politicians!
