To Swissair or not to Swissair?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Cisco Kid:
No ingrown toe nails here, mate. However, despite all that has unraveled in Switzerland over the last decade or so (banking scandals over accounts belonging to holocaust victims and over money laundering, lousy safety records in road transport [Gotthard Tunnel] and leisure industries [canyoning deaths and bungee jumping victims], and a national carrier that holds the sad record of the largest corporate f*ck-up in the country’s history), there still prevails an attitude of “can do no wrong” at best and total arrogance at worst.
You do not have to take my humble opinion for fact. But you could, for instance, also consider a couple of facts recorded in Sepp Moser’s (probably Switzerland’s foremost authority on the country’s aviation industry – notwithstanding his own problems with flying a plane containing fuel mixed with water last year) recent book “Bruchlandung” (Sepp Moser, Orell Füssli):
Quote 1:
(Re Arrogance): In Alaska führte ein als Passagier mitfliegender Swissair-Pilot einen Radau auf, nur weil er glaubte, seinen schnee- und wintererfahrenen Berufskollegen lautstark beibringen zu müssen, wie sie in einem Schneesturm zu starten haben.
Quote 2:
Re Superiority complex: Konflikte zurückdämmen statt lösen, mauern statt informieren, den Kopf in den Sand stecken, nach der Devise: “Wir sind und bleiben die Nummer eins - wir können auch alleine in Europa überleben”.
(As we are discussing SR and Switzerland in this thread, I’m sure I do not need to translate these statements).
There is a national tendency in Switzerland to either want to be in charge of any multi-national grouping or to go it alone. Example: Qualiflyer Group, an alliance built on the refusal to be just part of any of the truly large alliances. On a larger scale, there is the dogged refusal to join the UN or even the EU. Whether this is the result of arrogance, ignorance or stubbornness, you tell me, please.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Hooking Fell ]</p>
No ingrown toe nails here, mate. However, despite all that has unraveled in Switzerland over the last decade or so (banking scandals over accounts belonging to holocaust victims and over money laundering, lousy safety records in road transport [Gotthard Tunnel] and leisure industries [canyoning deaths and bungee jumping victims], and a national carrier that holds the sad record of the largest corporate f*ck-up in the country’s history), there still prevails an attitude of “can do no wrong” at best and total arrogance at worst.
You do not have to take my humble opinion for fact. But you could, for instance, also consider a couple of facts recorded in Sepp Moser’s (probably Switzerland’s foremost authority on the country’s aviation industry – notwithstanding his own problems with flying a plane containing fuel mixed with water last year) recent book “Bruchlandung” (Sepp Moser, Orell Füssli):
Quote 1:
(Re Arrogance): In Alaska führte ein als Passagier mitfliegender Swissair-Pilot einen Radau auf, nur weil er glaubte, seinen schnee- und wintererfahrenen Berufskollegen lautstark beibringen zu müssen, wie sie in einem Schneesturm zu starten haben.
Quote 2:
Re Superiority complex: Konflikte zurückdämmen statt lösen, mauern statt informieren, den Kopf in den Sand stecken, nach der Devise: “Wir sind und bleiben die Nummer eins - wir können auch alleine in Europa überleben”.
(As we are discussing SR and Switzerland in this thread, I’m sure I do not need to translate these statements).
There is a national tendency in Switzerland to either want to be in charge of any multi-national grouping or to go it alone. Example: Qualiflyer Group, an alliance built on the refusal to be just part of any of the truly large alliances. On a larger scale, there is the dogged refusal to join the UN or even the EU. Whether this is the result of arrogance, ignorance or stubbornness, you tell me, please.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Hooking Fell ]</p>
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]Der Fall der Swissair - ISBN 3-909167-67-5. <hr></blockquote>
Yes, I've bought it. It is also available in a French translation. I think it is published by the Edipresse owned
<a href="http://www.edicom.ch/bilan/ladebacle/" target="_blank">Bilan Magazine</a>. I think it's also available for reading for free on the net.
The book is quite interresting as it traces the Swissair story for the last 12 - 15 year (about when Loepfe entered into action). There are some good stories like "How did Moritz Suter" kill the Alcazar project, etc...
It sounds like a good piece of journalism, but am not 100% sure about the truth of everything. Not that I have doubts, but well... Things are sometimes kept secret!
Yes, I've bought it. It is also available in a French translation. I think it is published by the Edipresse owned
<a href="http://www.edicom.ch/bilan/ladebacle/" target="_blank">Bilan Magazine</a>. I think it's also available for reading for free on the net.
The book is quite interresting as it traces the Swissair story for the last 12 - 15 year (about when Loepfe entered into action). There are some good stories like "How did Moritz Suter" kill the Alcazar project, etc...
It sounds like a good piece of journalism, but am not 100% sure about the truth of everything. Not that I have doubts, but well... Things are sometimes kept secret!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Confederatio Helvetica
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]I propose a competition on this site to establish
a suitable name for the new Swiss airline,I would like to say anything avoiding the word "air" as the second syllable gets 10 bonus points. <hr></blockquote>
A synthesis of Crossair and Swissair....hmmmmmmm, difficult.
Ooh Oooooh, I know. Take the first syllable of LX and the second syllable of SR!
PERFECT.
a suitable name for the new Swiss airline,I would like to say anything avoiding the word "air" as the second syllable gets 10 bonus points. <hr></blockquote>
A synthesis of Crossair and Swissair....hmmmmmmm, difficult.
Ooh Oooooh, I know. Take the first syllable of LX and the second syllable of SR!
PERFECT.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hooking you have made some valid points,there is certainly an "Island" mentality in Gnomeland changing slowly as the real world encroaches evermore into the country.A feudal system is in it´s death throes,I hope.Many countries, including the land of the free have scandals which they would prefer to leave buried.I do have to say that on the non-management side SR was an excellent Airline( based on comparison and personal experience).
I´m sure you remember the Aussie Pilot strike debacle in ,was it 89?,arrogance on the Government´s part,Media bias,dirty tricks, in fact the lot. Anyway a sensitive issue for all the Pilots concerned;and causing misery to many of our colleagues;but I wasn´t there but it seemed scandalous to me.
AS for Sepp Moser well,who knows? he is a journalist after all! I do know quite a lot about that ANC story though and the Captain whom I knew
assured me the Aircraft wings were contaminated with wet snow during taxy out.I think it took nerve to point this out and refuse to travel in the Aircraft ,he was dead heading with crew,he was arrested briefly, and most interestingly the Alaskan Airways A/C was de-iced again at the gate.By the way he was not Swiss,maybe he stopped an accident, maybe not,but remember Air Florida in Washington?I don´t see this as arrogant rather as responsible behaviour.
He´d probably be locked up for 20yrs. nowadays!
So old Sepp sometimes let´s his lack of real expertise show,but the Public don´t realise that of course. Good Luck Cisco.
I´m sure you remember the Aussie Pilot strike debacle in ,was it 89?,arrogance on the Government´s part,Media bias,dirty tricks, in fact the lot. Anyway a sensitive issue for all the Pilots concerned;and causing misery to many of our colleagues;but I wasn´t there but it seemed scandalous to me.
AS for Sepp Moser well,who knows? he is a journalist after all! I do know quite a lot about that ANC story though and the Captain whom I knew
assured me the Aircraft wings were contaminated with wet snow during taxy out.I think it took nerve to point this out and refuse to travel in the Aircraft ,he was dead heading with crew,he was arrested briefly, and most interestingly the Alaskan Airways A/C was de-iced again at the gate.By the way he was not Swiss,maybe he stopped an accident, maybe not,but remember Air Florida in Washington?I don´t see this as arrogant rather as responsible behaviour.
He´d probably be locked up for 20yrs. nowadays!
So old Sepp sometimes let´s his lack of real expertise show,but the Public don´t realise that of course. Good Luck Cisco.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Confederatio Helvetica
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]On a larger scale, there is the dogged refusal to join the UN or even the EU. Whether this is the result of arrogance, ignorance or stubbornness, you tell me, please. <hr></blockquote>
Just plain good sense, it seems to me.
Switzerland has everything to lose and nothing to gain by EU membership, unless and until the EU relaxes it's financial transparency rules, that is.
The EU budget is €90Billion, and a whisker under €4.5Billion vanishes each and every year, unaccounted for and unexplained. Why on earth would anyone volunteer to join the outfit while there are Belgians involved?
Why should they join either organisation. What's in it for Switzerland? Nuthin', mate!
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]</p>
Just plain good sense, it seems to me.
Switzerland has everything to lose and nothing to gain by EU membership, unless and until the EU relaxes it's financial transparency rules, that is.
The EU budget is €90Billion, and a whisker under €4.5Billion vanishes each and every year, unaccounted for and unexplained. Why on earth would anyone volunteer to join the outfit while there are Belgians involved?
Why should they join either organisation. What's in it for Switzerland? Nuthin', mate!
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: Hold at Saffa ]</p>
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oui Aerienne..pas mal, the best so far.
A bit Xenophobic Saffa the "what´s in it for us" line is counterproductive,and Swissair managed to "disappear" about 10 billion dollars as a result of the desperation to gain a foothold in the EU via Sabena as a result of a no vote to the EWR.It would have been better value to join surely.Ask any redundant SR employee if an EU passport would help them find a job, of course it would, in Europe anyway!and doesn´t the LX Basel base allow qausi EU traffic rights?The question is what would Switzerland have to offer the EU? not the other way around.
A bit Xenophobic Saffa the "what´s in it for us" line is counterproductive,and Swissair managed to "disappear" about 10 billion dollars as a result of the desperation to gain a foothold in the EU via Sabena as a result of a no vote to the EWR.It would have been better value to join surely.Ask any redundant SR employee if an EU passport would help them find a job, of course it would, in Europe anyway!and doesn´t the LX Basel base allow qausi EU traffic rights?The question is what would Switzerland have to offer the EU? not the other way around.
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: CH/F
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New Names
Swiss European Airlines (Crossair) and Swiss World Arlines (swissair)
Mother company is Swiss and European and World are the subdivisions.
2 CLA's same pay and separate seniority systems.
We'll see.
Swiss European Airlines (Crossair) and Swiss World Arlines (swissair)
Mother company is Swiss and European and World are the subdivisions.
2 CLA's same pay and separate seniority systems.
We'll see.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SWISS EUROPEAN /SWISS INTERNATIONAL,good names TS
But we could drop the word Airways, keep the "old Swissair" tail logo (instantly recognisable) and there you have it. perhaps a revamped colour scheme? it is a nice combination; neither SR or LX but something new,without being pathetic eg."unique Airport"
as FOR SENIORITY AND PAY.. LATER ON TERMS AND ENDEARMENT PERHAPS.
But we could drop the word Airways, keep the "old Swissair" tail logo (instantly recognisable) and there you have it. perhaps a revamped colour scheme? it is a nice combination; neither SR or LX but something new,without being pathetic eg."unique Airport"
as FOR SENIORITY AND PAY.. LATER ON TERMS AND ENDEARMENT PERHAPS.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Confederatio Helvetica
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]But we could drop the word Airways, keep the "old Swissair" tail logo <hr></blockquote>
'Fraid not, me old darling. That's a trademark, and possesses the same colateral liability as the 'S' word.
'Fraid not, me old darling. That's a trademark, and possesses the same colateral liability as the 'S' word.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QUOTE] Swiss European Airlines (Crossair) and Swiss World Arlines (swissair)[ [/QUOTE]
Swiss World... That name has already been used for a new company a few years ago, when SR pull out of Geneva.
They were operating one B767 between GVA and JFK but went bankrupt after a few weeks of operations. I still don't understand why they decided to operate on the only line that Swissair kept open from GVA <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Anyhow, SWA, I think is out of the order...
Swiss World... That name has already been used for a new company a few years ago, when SR pull out of Geneva.
They were operating one B767 between GVA and JFK but went bankrupt after a few weeks of operations. I still don't understand why they decided to operate on the only line that Swissair kept open from GVA <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Anyhow, SWA, I think is out of the order...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: China
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
how about
"Société Anonyme Suisse d'Exploitation de la Navigation Aérienne"
you could call it "Sasena" for short...
or would our swissgerman friends not agree? then how about "Schweizerische Lufthansa" ?
"Société Anonyme Suisse d'Exploitation de la Navigation Aérienne"
you could call it "Sasena" for short...
or would our swissgerman friends not agree? then how about "Schweizerische Lufthansa" ?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hooking Fell,
Yep, the Swiss re-invent the wheel yearly. They certainly do not like to be told anything and their "little man in Europe, but we can stand alone" attitude has done the Airline Industry no favours. Hopefully the Swissair debacle has taught them a lesson but whether they will actually change is debatable. Watching the goings on with the new airline of Switzerland, I have my doubts.
Sepp Moser "the foremost aviation authority"? Here you are skating on thin ice! The man does exemplary research and then tends to ruin the whole effort by finding some way of relating it in a negative way regarding Swissair. You do know of course that his little incident with water in the fuel was not HIS fault, but certainly a Swissair pilot trying to kill him! Anyway, after his last 2 humbling appearances on TV, he has gone very quiet. One hopes it stays this way.
Regarding the Alaska incident. Cisco's report is 100% accurate. I think the Captains actions were exactly what is called for in this situation and I would hope that all of us would do the same in similar conditions.
Yep, the Swiss re-invent the wheel yearly. They certainly do not like to be told anything and their "little man in Europe, but we can stand alone" attitude has done the Airline Industry no favours. Hopefully the Swissair debacle has taught them a lesson but whether they will actually change is debatable. Watching the goings on with the new airline of Switzerland, I have my doubts.
Sepp Moser "the foremost aviation authority"? Here you are skating on thin ice! The man does exemplary research and then tends to ruin the whole effort by finding some way of relating it in a negative way regarding Swissair. You do know of course that his little incident with water in the fuel was not HIS fault, but certainly a Swissair pilot trying to kill him! Anyway, after his last 2 humbling appearances on TV, he has gone very quiet. One hopes it stays this way.
Regarding the Alaska incident. Cisco's report is 100% accurate. I think the Captains actions were exactly what is called for in this situation and I would hope that all of us would do the same in similar conditions.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Genolier, Switzerland
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Air Fondue" would also capture what happens to the invested capital and share values, for French speakers.
The need to be in an Alliance seems strange to me. Nobody seems to be predicting disaster for Uncle Richard. (For Alliance, read Swissair and Switzerland)
Momo
The need to be in an Alliance seems strange to me. Nobody seems to be predicting disaster for Uncle Richard. (For Alliance, read Swissair and Switzerland)
Momo
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not just "Swiss"?
At least this is one name Crossair has copyrighted at the swiss "Eidgenössisches Institut für Markenschutz" recently.
[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: Kerosene Kraut ]</p>
At least this is one name Crossair has copyrighted at the swiss "Eidgenössisches Institut für Markenschutz" recently.
[ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: Kerosene Kraut ]</p>