Fired for refusal to fly through ash cloud
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Look folks. It's very clear (to me anyway).
If I was to pop up and say 'I'm not going-and that is final' then I know that one of two things is going to happen.
Either;
1. I'm going to explain why. I will justify my action based on sound airmanship or some other provable, fact based explanation for my actions that at the very least will establish that at the time I said 'no' there was every chance I was acting wisely, even if it later turns out I got it wrong.
2. I will be subject to the companies disciplinary process.
You can't just do as you please without a damn good reason. Not knowing the facts, of course, maybe this guy had such a reason.
I hope so, but I doubt it.
If I was to pop up and say 'I'm not going-and that is final' then I know that one of two things is going to happen.
Either;
1. I'm going to explain why. I will justify my action based on sound airmanship or some other provable, fact based explanation for my actions that at the very least will establish that at the time I said 'no' there was every chance I was acting wisely, even if it later turns out I got it wrong.
2. I will be subject to the companies disciplinary process.
You can't just do as you please without a damn good reason. Not knowing the facts, of course, maybe this guy had such a reason.
I hope so, but I doubt it.
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We are captains to fly in more than a CAVOK day with an airplane clean of technical issues with the best FO, the most professional cabin crew staff and with the most civilized pax, that is the reason we are captains.
Does it mean that his/her colleagues that actually did the flights were unsafe? we have to be careful with this type of statments. I think thius doesnīt ma doesnīt make any benefit to his company colleagues.
I canīt imagine airlines making nonsense with such a public issue like the ashes, unless somebody wants to use this matter against the company for his or her own benefit .Everything looks a bit strange
Does it mean that his/her colleagues that actually did the flights were unsafe? we have to be careful with this type of statments. I think thius doesnīt ma doesnīt make any benefit to his company colleagues.
I canīt imagine airlines making nonsense with such a public issue like the ashes, unless somebody wants to use this matter against the company for his or her own benefit .Everything looks a bit strange
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Pace wrote:
...an later:
Pace, you haven't.
But, sorry, your whole post sounds like a dismissal of any ash related risk.
As long as the flight was in conditions which met the new ash criteria I am not surprised he was dismissed as it comes over as trouble making more than a safety issue.
Where have I ever recommended operating in ASH which is known to be higher than the new ash criteria levels?
But, sorry, your whole post sounds like a dismissal of any ash related risk.
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But, sorry, your whole post sounds like a dismissal of any ash related risk.
I am repeating my position from the original thread on Ash. You talk about the manufacturers but their position was anything over zero ash was not acceptable.
The press and media blew everything up to a hysterical level which is the usual media way and the unknowing public responded in an equally hysterical way with some equally "way over board claims in the forum". One was that ash had a mystical property which unlike any other air particles was invisible.
Patent it and stick it on the next Stealth Bomber
So some of us were trying to be realists and to bring some sense into the arguement.
The fact is that no one yet really knows at what density Ash will cause serious and immediate damage that could bring an aircraft down.
The new criteria are a sock it and see guess.
As for piloting I would avoid in known ash areas flying into any visible clouds or mist areas especially pollution coloured clouds if at all possible.
The good old see and avoid.
My guess is that if you cannot see it then it will not do immediate damage.
Long Term damage is for the Airline accountants to work out and not our problem.
I would avoid flying at night which isnt a major problem at this time of year.
I would stick with the new ash criteria until the authorities get more field experience where they may raise or lower those acceptable limits.
Flight is a risk and many other threats like bird strikes are accepted yet other threats do have repeated fatality records over the last 50 years in aviation.
To date Ash has never killed anyone unless your a smoker
But I am only a bottom of the pile corporate jet Captain so what do I know?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 15th May 2010 at 11:14.
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In the case of this 'ash' thing only.
How, for heavens sake, are you or I going to come up with a defendable case that we know better than the 'experts' who've said it's safe to fly?
All right, if your aircraft is covered in a six inch thick layer of volcanic ash, then fine.
Otherwise, you're on the thin ice.
How, for heavens sake, are you or I going to come up with a defendable case that we know better than the 'experts' who've said it's safe to fly?
All right, if your aircraft is covered in a six inch thick layer of volcanic ash, then fine.
Otherwise, you're on the thin ice.
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Get real matey
@Pugilistic Animus - Post #5
What planet do you live on?
Nobody, I repeat this for you, nobody's authority is sacred. Do you think I think there is anything sacred about my authority? If the airspace is open and everyone else is flying you just get on with it, like everyone else. What do you think the rest of the crew were thinking? Did he bother about this?
I still think a commander's authority to refuse flights is sacred
Nobody, I repeat this for you, nobody's authority is sacred. Do you think I think there is anything sacred about my authority? If the airspace is open and everyone else is flying you just get on with it, like everyone else. What do you think the rest of the crew were thinking? Did he bother about this?
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Just one hour ago it was reported that the pilot responsible for the Lufthansa flight safety department resigned over a controversy concerning the controlled VFR flights of LH aircraft during the airspace closure due to vulcanic ash warnings. Now we know were they put safety: out the door. 
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Being a Captain is about responsibility and authority
I just can't stand captainy captains. I've seen enough of them when I was an F/O. I've seen enough power-crazed ar$eh0les when I was in the Forces. I think authority and bossyness are a bad thing and I disagree with people who feel they should defend it.
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To me the problem lies with the appearance that this was the only pilot that day to refuse to go flying, while others with presumably the same information decided that flight was safely possible.
I don't know the airline concerned nor its internal ethics, but when a commander fails in convincing his chief pilot that based on his information a flight cannot be safely performed and he is the only one to feel that way (seemingly), I'm sure management would wonder about the decision making capabilities of said commander, as those safe/unsafe decisions do affect the bottom line and should not be taken lighheartedly, either way.
I also wonder if the sole reason for dismissal was a one off refusal to operate a flight or whether there is more of a history.
In any case, lacking more information all I can do is think about the general issue of command responsibility without coming to a conclusion about this particular case.
I don't know the airline concerned nor its internal ethics, but when a commander fails in convincing his chief pilot that based on his information a flight cannot be safely performed and he is the only one to feel that way (seemingly), I'm sure management would wonder about the decision making capabilities of said commander, as those safe/unsafe decisions do affect the bottom line and should not be taken lighheartedly, either way.
I also wonder if the sole reason for dismissal was a one off refusal to operate a flight or whether there is more of a history.
In any case, lacking more information all I can do is think about the general issue of command responsibility without coming to a conclusion about this particular case.
?
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Hello all, thanks for the responses.A few points:
I have legal advise, but it should not prevent me to discuss things openly. I have nothing to hide. Fact: Routes to have been flown penetrated the official boundaries given by VAAC London. Company support material exclusively existed of the aircraft manufacturer's advisory, where it is clearly stated that flights through ash should be avoided by all means. Dispatchers have no knowledge nor training in providing updates on the situation, plus no guidelines were given from the company until TODAY, on what is acceptable or not. And on one occasion, if I had not ignored the "chief pilot" on insisting to proceed with my planned destination (I changed it to an airport outside the affected area), I found myself enroute - like maybe a few of you on that day - when not only the original destination airport, but also my alternate were suddenly closed. Since I anticipated these events and using good judgment, plus an extra ton of fuel on board, I proceeded calmly to my new destination knowing I could land there and wouldn't be turned away, because the tarmac is full of diverted planes.And I didn't end up in a low-fuel potential emergency situation. As far as judgment goes, if it's ok to fly I fly over, under or around the boundaries of this cloud, but they don't pay me enough money to put the safety of my flight at risk and fly through it. Just because a few pilots are willing to do it, doesn't mean I'm gonna do it. I believe in operating within the legal boundaries of the profession. I am neither a test pilot nor an expert on volcanic ash. But I can interpret the available information and base my professional decisions on that. Commercial or peer pressure means nothing to me.
I have legal advise, but it should not prevent me to discuss things openly. I have nothing to hide. Fact: Routes to have been flown penetrated the official boundaries given by VAAC London. Company support material exclusively existed of the aircraft manufacturer's advisory, where it is clearly stated that flights through ash should be avoided by all means. Dispatchers have no knowledge nor training in providing updates on the situation, plus no guidelines were given from the company until TODAY, on what is acceptable or not. And on one occasion, if I had not ignored the "chief pilot" on insisting to proceed with my planned destination (I changed it to an airport outside the affected area), I found myself enroute - like maybe a few of you on that day - when not only the original destination airport, but also my alternate were suddenly closed. Since I anticipated these events and using good judgment, plus an extra ton of fuel on board, I proceeded calmly to my new destination knowing I could land there and wouldn't be turned away, because the tarmac is full of diverted planes.And I didn't end up in a low-fuel potential emergency situation. As far as judgment goes, if it's ok to fly I fly over, under or around the boundaries of this cloud, but they don't pay me enough money to put the safety of my flight at risk and fly through it. Just because a few pilots are willing to do it, doesn't mean I'm gonna do it. I believe in operating within the legal boundaries of the profession. I am neither a test pilot nor an expert on volcanic ash. But I can interpret the available information and base my professional decisions on that. Commercial or peer pressure means nothing to me.
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Was this captain fired for refusing to fly through areas with the newly defined safe ash concentrations. (red areas in these charts.), then I understand that the company has some problems with the captain's decision and might fire him.
If however his flight was planned to go through one of the areas with ash concentrations above the manufacturers new limits, ( black areas in the same charts.), -even if the airspace is open- then I do feel sorry for this captain and think that his dismissal was very unfair.
My company will not fly through these "black areas" -even if they're open, simply because no insurer would cover you if something happened.
If fired for the wrong reason, I would suggest the captain to seek legal assistance and take this to court.
Best regards,
Sabenaboy
If however his flight was planned to go through one of the areas with ash concentrations above the manufacturers new limits, ( black areas in the same charts.), -even if the airspace is open- then I do feel sorry for this captain and think that his dismissal was very unfair.
My company will not fly through these "black areas" -even if they're open, simply because no insurer would cover you if something happened.
If fired for the wrong reason, I would suggest the captain to seek legal assistance and take this to court.
Best regards,
Sabenaboy
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Seems like the old problem if you've never experienced it or heard of it all will be fine ...that is until someone goes down,only this week at my home airport Belfast City a fr 737 made an emergency landing when pax and cabin crew noticed a strong burning smell after takeoff aircraft returned safely,word is.... wait for it traces of ash were discovered in the engine.
I agree that the captains decision final regarding safety however on the flip side of the coin if we refused to fly for every little grievance that arisies we'd get nowhere.
Personally i dont think the pilot in question has anything to worry about as if in a tribuneral is can be proved that ash was predicted anywhere near the aircrafts flight path he will be vindicated.
I agree that the captains decision final regarding safety however on the flip side of the coin if we refused to fly for every little grievance that arisies we'd get nowhere.
Personally i dont think the pilot in question has anything to worry about as if in a tribuneral is can be proved that ash was predicted anywhere near the aircrafts flight path he will be vindicated.
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In regards to the "new charts" I would like to suggest reading the notes: they are supplementary to the official boundary charts by VAAC London. For legal purposes the VAACs have precedence. I've been doing this long enough to know, that only one rule really matters in this industry: CYA (cover your ass).
But I also have never had to deal with such a level of incompetence and complacency from operations and management.
But I also have never had to deal with such a level of incompetence and complacency from operations and management.
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@driver320
Does that mean that you based your refusal to fly on these charts, even if these new charts showed your flight-planned route to be clear of the black areas?
IF that's so I feel already less sorry for you and don't think you have much chance of winning in a court.
Good luck anyway!
Does that mean that you based your refusal to fly on these charts, even if these new charts showed your flight-planned route to be clear of the black areas?
IF that's so I feel already less sorry for you and don't think you have much chance of winning in a court.
Good luck anyway!
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Actually he's correct
These charts supplement the official Volcanic Ash Advisory Graphics and Volcanic Ash Advisories. They are to be used with caution
The official Volcanic Ash Graphics and Volcanic Ash Advisories take precedence in all circumstances.
So as per his comments these charts are basically totally useless and unsuitable for operational use at any time they conflict with the superseding information
The official Volcanic Ash Graphics and Volcanic Ash Advisories take precedence in all circumstances.
So as per his comments these charts are basically totally useless and unsuitable for operational use at any time they conflict with the superseding information
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I do agree with Guppy. The Captain dis, The captain dat...Blah balh balh. We as Captains should drop the ego crap and remember that we are administratively responsible to operate the airplane in accordance with agreed operating standards taking into consideration all factors. If this Captain had credible information that would put the airplane in an unsafe situation then he should be commended. However, If his decision is based on personal beliefs then I think he should be reprimanded. Firing might be too harsh. Ironically, there was no mention of the copilot. Wasnt there one or he didnt count. Sometimes management use the book to get rid of individuals who have constantly caused grief and due to union protection were not able to do anything. I remember a captain I flew with many years ago in the states who would delay the flight when on the west coast so he can go home. He would use delay tactics using maintenance etc, etc so that he would time out. Company couldnt prove anything. After all, he is the CAPTAIN He was a very experienced Captain with over 20 years command. They eventually fired him when they got the chance for something less severe. All that proved is that an incompetent idiot at year 1 becomes moreso with time. Unfortunately, SOMETIMES due to unions, FO's are promoted to Captains purely by seniority number and the ability to pass a sim rides as was the case in the pre crm days. . It is generally those Captains who grade their abilities on years at the seat and would let everyone who would listen know. Why is he the only pilot in Europe to refuse to fly because he FELT it was unsafe or was the rest of the European pilots so incompetent and oblivious that they were unable to see this great danger.Maybe he was the only Pilot to be assigned that route. I will never knowingly fly in or thru volcanic nor do I know anyone who would and I have flown all regions in the world but I will not use MISS CLEO or my ego as the source of my data. We must rely on our support system to guide us towards a safe flight. If we continiously start to question maintenance,dispatch,catering etc etc etc, then its time to pack it in and change careers where the sole decision is made by the individual. Thank god I have flown with a few video generation copilots as I have learn so much from them. nuff said man!!
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Solidarity
Quote:
It is amazing how many pilots jump at the opportunity to attack your fellow colleagues! What happened to the solidarity that once graced this profession?
May I say something about solidarity amongst pilots.
It was 1974 and I was a very young (27) captain on a Caravelle working for a charter company in northern Europe. I refused an aircraft with a hydraulic leak. The dispatcher send me home and phoned a seasoned captain to operate the flight to Tel Aviv. He asked the dispatcher the reason for the change of his schedule and the dispatcher told him a young inexperienced captain refused to accept the plane. He wanted to explain the deficiency to the captain but before he could do so the captain said.
"If it is not good enough for him it it not good enough for me, you don't have to explain the details."
The captain was Joe Allen working for the CAA and freelancing for my company.
He should be in his 90' ties if he is still alive. So yes there was and hope still is solidarity. Yes ,time has changed but I have faith in the pilot community.
Good Flying to all of you!
John Telders
It is amazing how many pilots jump at the opportunity to attack your fellow colleagues! What happened to the solidarity that once graced this profession?
May I say something about solidarity amongst pilots.
It was 1974 and I was a very young (27) captain on a Caravelle working for a charter company in northern Europe. I refused an aircraft with a hydraulic leak. The dispatcher send me home and phoned a seasoned captain to operate the flight to Tel Aviv. He asked the dispatcher the reason for the change of his schedule and the dispatcher told him a young inexperienced captain refused to accept the plane. He wanted to explain the deficiency to the captain but before he could do so the captain said.
"If it is not good enough for him it it not good enough for me, you don't have to explain the details."
The captain was Joe Allen working for the CAA and freelancing for my company.
He should be in his 90' ties if he is still alive. So yes there was and hope still is solidarity. Yes ,time has changed but I have faith in the pilot community.
Good Flying to all of you!
John Telders
What planet do you live on?
Nobody, I repeat this for you, nobody's authority is sacred. Do you think I think there is anything sacred about my authority? If the airspace is open and everyone else is flying you just get on with it, like everyone else. What do you think the rest of the crew were thinking? Did he bother about this?[
Nobody, I repeat this for you, nobody's authority is sacred. Do you think I think there is anything sacred about my authority? If the airspace is open and everyone else is flying you just get on with it, like everyone else. What do you think the rest of the crew were thinking? Did he bother about this?[
'everyone else' is on the ground and therefore useless---
but I think those who've read some of my 'Prattling on" would know exactly what I meant
Driver320
if the situation was how you described then you made the Correct decision.. based on the OEM and other notices...using all official and available information....good luck with your proceedings..
.you can't just sway in every little 30kt breeze or drift along helplessly in the wind...and hope everything will be just fine
if the situation was how you described then you made the Correct decision.. based on the OEM and other notices...using all official and available information....good luck with your proceedings..
.you can't just sway in every little 30kt breeze or drift along helplessly in the wind...and hope everything will be just fine