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Open skies or back to government support.

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Open skies or back to government support.

Old 18th Apr 2010, 20:59
  #21 (permalink)  
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Somewhere, there's a play in the management playbook for this situation.

First, the companies furlough the senior staff that eats up payroll, along with dumping any known routes and cancelling any contracts and arrangements that have gotten more expensive over the years than they're worth.

Second, they use these legally and morally questionable "emergency actions" as evidence that they're "in extreme financial distress" and seek government subsidies.

Third, management gives themselves a nice raise.
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 00:05
  #22 (permalink)  
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His attitude was just, 'make it work' without providing the resources or management skills to do so. He did not 'set up Continental with a low cost base' he drove us into the ground with his incompetent management and lack of funding, this he diverted to his own pockets.
Makes for interesting reading, however, not exactly on point.
I knew Bob Six personally, and when he passed away, Continental was in a severe bind...the smallest of the trunk carriers and UAL was eating them for lunch at DEN and ORD, and they would have rapidly gone under, if Lorenzo had not pumped in urgent cash.
That Lorenzo was later a lousy manager has nothing to do with it...no Lorenzo with cash, CO goes away and Gordon B would have never been heard from.
EAL was waaaay overburdened with debt, had lousy management (the astronaut) and a high cost militant union workforce.
Frank mearly took advantage of the situation, to his (and Continental's) benefit.

I would have done exactly the same, re EAL.
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 04:00
  #23 (permalink)  
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What exactly is your problem? I don't want to see anymore draconian measures to cut T&C's in this industry thanks very much. You banging on about it and whinging about nobody being there for poor old FR is gonna get you very little sympathy from anybody as there are people in worse positions than poor old you.

Where are you going to start this thread next? Cabin crew forum maybe?
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 06:52
  #24 (permalink)  
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On the contrary 411A, Continental was not in a 'severe bind' when Lorenzo came calling.

Frank had made a lot of money in 1979 by running up the stock price of National Airlines with his take over attempt. Pan Am ended up buying 100% of the stock to gain control in one of many ill considered moves that brought that Airline to it's knees eventually.

With over $100 million dollars in his pocket from this 'failure' Frank went shopping for another Airline. He wanted to vault his tiny little Texas International into the big time.

His reputation preceeded him however.

He was shown the door at every attempt to even discuss the possibility of a merger with another Airline. Bob Six rejected him, as did Edwin Smart, the head of TWA at the time.

Six had handed over control of Continental to Alvin Feldman by the time Lorenzo made his next take over attempt, realising his attempts at merger would not be welcome he initiated a hostile take over, purchasing a Million dollars worth of Continental shares starting a tender offer and within days owned nearly half of Cal's stock.

Incredibly, with the existing laws at the time he was able to secure collateral for the money he borrowed by pledging Continentals own aircraft.

Despite the best attempts of Continentals management and their Pilots with their ESOP plan they were out maneuvered by Lorenzo and his sidekick Phil Bakes who succeeded in taking control.

Lorenzo did not 'pump in cash' to Continental, it was strictly his 'skills' as a backroom deal maker that gained him control.

Continental would have done just fine without him. If you really knew Bob Six and the Airline he handed off to Al Feldman you would also know, even then, it was still the premiere Airline in the country.

Continental barely survived Lorenzo's tenure over the ensuing years, with two bankruptcies, his abrogation of all Pilot Contracts and subsequent strike, the hiring of hundreds of scab Pilots, the lowering of maintenance and service standards to the point that no one who had a choice would ride on them.

Frank had also cost the Airline a lot of money in legal expenses fighting off his take over attempt. He recouped this by firing a large portion of the workforce and reneging on labour contracts with the others, a familiar pattern with him.

To summarise, he was a destructive and toxic individual. He did not 'save' Continental but nearly destroyed it. The employees of Continental saved the airline with Gordon Bethunes leadership and competent management team.

Frank Lorenzo was and is the only Airline Executive to be banned from being in any management position by Congress, permanently.

Your 'version' of history is completely incorrect 411a.

I suggest you stick to discussing the L1011

Last edited by stilton; 19th Apr 2010 at 08:04.
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 08:37
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starting a tender offer and within days owned nearly half of Cal's stock.
Hmmm, it would seem that the Continental shareholders liked Lorenzo's ideas, otherwise, they would not have tendered their shares.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, stilton.
I know several ex-Continental folks, some walked away and were bitter, some stayed and were later rewarded for doing so.
Also rewarded were the new hires during the strike, accepted right back into the ALPA fold, thereby making ALPA a laughing stock.
Which it mostly still is, oddly enough, especially after they blindly followed the IAM on strike at EAL.
What a fiasco that was...
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 18:50
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The share holders were along for the ride.

The scabs were not accepted 'back into the Alpa fold'

Continental Pilots went without a Union for many years until the independent association of Continental Pilots was formed.

Several years after that ALPA was vote back onto the property. If you think they are a joke as a Union that's fine but working for a major US Airline without Union representation is an exercise in complete futility while management screws you to the wall.

As Lorenzo did.

I know, I was there.

Your admiration of Lorenzo is as puzzling as your complete distortion of the facts.

Last edited by stilton; 19th Apr 2010 at 19:19.
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 19:21
  #27 (permalink)  
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Thread drift?
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Old 20th Apr 2010, 03:41
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Devil Off topic

Well said Stilton!!!! Lorenzo and the CAL scabs have put such a dent in our industry we will never recover....the race to bottom started right there, and continues to this day.... Off topic but how do those CAL 83-85 "new hires" feel about a CAL/UAL merger.... I don't think ALPA or it pilots ever "forgot".
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Old 20th Apr 2010, 05:39
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Thanks Bratko,

Well, it's been over 25 years now since the strike and the number of scabs left at Continental is slowly shrinking although RA65 has slowed this process down considerably.

None of us at Cal want to see a merger with UA, least of all 'Lorenzo's boys' as they would be ostracized in a mixed seniority list.

By the time this would take place however they would probably all be retired or the debt laden dysfunctional disaster that would result if this deal is approved will already have failed.
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