Ash clouds threaten air traffic
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Proved darn useful - STO Radio
Hopefully as we see these new regulations come into play, I'd just like to say how useful I found Stockholm Radio's HF service. The staff were most accommodating and helpful in what was probably a busy period for them.
Keep up the great service!
Keep up the great service!
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g m c, totally agree! Just like Alaskan Airlines, the airlines of Europe should have approached their regulatory bodies with a safety plan in hand. Hey CAA/JAA, here's the problem and this is our solution in order to operate safely in this new environment. 
Off to Dubai!
Off to Dubai!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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To pick up on the point made by green granite and others - what could be a little alarming is that when the 'black' ash cloud suddenly zipped off into the north sea at Warp factor 9 it 'zipped' into an airspace that had been quite clear of 'black' ash on the previous map..
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Even more alarming is the lead-up to the 'jump at Warp 9'.
VA charts for the preceding several days had all shown a consistent progression towards the supposedly-accurate chart for Monday 0600. OK - so maybe the data being fed into the VA modelling software was based on weather forecasts that turned out to be inaccurate.
But hang on a minute.....
Once the actual weather yields real data (wind-speed, mass-air-flows, etc.), then the VA model should be routinely re-run, to correct the effects of incorrect weather forecasts, and then only those results used for further VA movement predictions. Otherwise, there is every likelihood of errors that 'self-amplify'.
It looks possible that this was not done, leading to the chaos on Monday morning: accumulating errors leading to a series of increasingly inaccurate charts, over several days. Then comparison data from an ash research flight (when???) became available, and sudden and massive changes were unavoidable. What other explanation fits the facts?
It would be OK if this was just a bunch of boffins doing basic research. But it seems to me that the Met Office has lost track entirely of the massive cost and other consequences for airlines and customers when errors occur. And quite apart from the noted problem of VA actually being present in the white bits!
VA charts for the preceding several days had all shown a consistent progression towards the supposedly-accurate chart for Monday 0600. OK - so maybe the data being fed into the VA modelling software was based on weather forecasts that turned out to be inaccurate.
But hang on a minute.....
Once the actual weather yields real data (wind-speed, mass-air-flows, etc.), then the VA model should be routinely re-run, to correct the effects of incorrect weather forecasts, and then only those results used for further VA movement predictions. Otherwise, there is every likelihood of errors that 'self-amplify'.
It looks possible that this was not done, leading to the chaos on Monday morning: accumulating errors leading to a series of increasingly inaccurate charts, over several days. Then comparison data from an ash research flight (when???) became available, and sudden and massive changes were unavoidable. What other explanation fits the facts?
It would be OK if this was just a bunch of boffins doing basic research. But it seems to me that the Met Office has lost track entirely of the massive cost and other consequences for airlines and customers when errors occur. And quite apart from the noted problem of VA actually being present in the white bits!
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Gengis,
So dust is always there, surprise surprise!! I know that because many years ago I flew 1-11's in the Gulf and the leading edges of the wings were sandblasted!!
Surely an analysis of what is on any "collector" device would establish what is sand and low level dust and what is volcanic ash. Correlate that with the condition of the engines and we would be able to get an understanding of the safe level of volcanic dust.
Problem is, you'll get all the low level dust on the way up and down as well, which is always there.
Surely an analysis of what is on any "collector" device would establish what is sand and low level dust and what is volcanic ash. Correlate that with the condition of the engines and we would be able to get an understanding of the safe level of volcanic dust.
I see from today that the acceptable Ash levels have been doubled with the Airlines calling for a tripling of those levels.
Pick a number from 1 and 10 if it doesnt work start again
All sounds very scientific
Pace
Pick a number from 1 and 10 if it doesnt work start again
All sounds very scientific
Pace
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Then that beggars the question isnt the pilot better placed with his/her experience on determining what is safe or not rather than burocrats, innacurate science and a hyped up media?
Pace
Pace
Beady Eye
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BD
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Most pilots won't have any experience with flying in this kind of crud.
Most of the stuff, even in the 'black' zones, is diffuse enough not to be visible even in VMC conditions, so what about IMC and night-time?
What is safe? One flight, two flights, three flights without any obvious engine-related problems? Then your colleague, who takes over the aircraft, hits a bit more ash, and together with the amount you've already unknowingly accumulated, sheds a few turbine blades?
Let's not oversimplify the issue.
CJ
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ASH
sO NOW WE HAVE A RED ZONE, BEST AVOID ZONE A GREY ZONE DONT STAY TOO LONG ZONE AND A BLACK ZONE OF OMG WE ARE ALL DOING TO DIE ZONE!! WHAT NEXT A DOUBLE YELLOW LINE ZONE OR A ZONE FOR LOADING AND UNLOADING ONLY!!!!!
ITS KINDA GETTING A BIT SILLY NOW DONT WE ALL THINK, IM SURE ASH IS A RATHER NASTY SUBSTANCE TO GET JAMED UP UR PIPES AT 25000 FEET BUT IS IT NOT TIME TO RETHINK THE WHOLE "ZONE" IDEA AND START AGAIN?
ITS KINDA GETTING A BIT SILLY NOW DONT WE ALL THINK, IM SURE ASH IS A RATHER NASTY SUBSTANCE TO GET JAMED UP UR PIPES AT 25000 FEET BUT IS IT NOT TIME TO RETHINK THE WHOLE "ZONE" IDEA AND START AGAIN?
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The stuff on the ground in Iceland is the coarse fallout that doesn't float in the air.... so no point in collecting it and playing with it.
The stuff causing the problems is like dust, or talcum powder.
Same like the Sahara sand regularly getting blown over to Europe, which is not sand as you know it on the beach... it's extremely fine dust that can be carried by the wind.
And unfortunately the stuff being blown over from Iceland is not sand dust, it's glass dust, that melts at the temperatures you find in jet engines... unlike sand.
CJ
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Madpaddy,
"A lesson for you fenchy. Note the second last sentence please."
Apart from me not being a Frenchy.... is there anything in your "cut and paste" that contradicts what I said?
"Larger rock fragments more than 2 inches across ejected by the explosion typically fall within a few miles of the eruption site. However, wind can quickly blow fine ash away from the volcano to form an eruption cloud. As the cloud drifts downwind from the erupting volcano, the ash that falls from the cloud typically becomes smaller in size and forms a thinner layer."
So collecting ash and debris from the ground a few miles downwind from the volcano for testing is a pretty pointless exercise. The "interesting" stuff is already airborne in the eruption cloud.
CJ
"A lesson for you fenchy. Note the second last sentence please."
Apart from me not being a Frenchy.... is there anything in your "cut and paste" that contradicts what I said?
"Larger rock fragments more than 2 inches across ejected by the explosion typically fall within a few miles of the eruption site. However, wind can quickly blow fine ash away from the volcano to form an eruption cloud. As the cloud drifts downwind from the erupting volcano, the ash that falls from the cloud typically becomes smaller in size and forms a thinner layer."
So collecting ash and debris from the ground a few miles downwind from the volcano for testing is a pretty pointless exercise. The "interesting" stuff is already airborne in the eruption cloud.
CJ
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I blogged on this topic a couple of times over the last month. People might be interested in http://www.abnormaldistribution.org/...-volcanic-ash/ , http://www.abnormaldistribution.org/...ic-ash-part-2/ and http://www.abnormaldistribution.org/...-volcanic-ash/
There are pictures of what looks like severe ash damage to a Citation engine circulating on the Internet. They are horrendous. If they are genuine, they will silence our sceptics. Does anyone have a provenance for those pictures?
PBL
There are pictures of what looks like severe ash damage to a Citation engine circulating on the Internet. They are horrendous. If they are genuine, they will silence our sceptics. Does anyone have a provenance for those pictures?
PBL
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Two minutes on Google, from another site. 
CEN10RA135
Pictures here.
Engine Damage Photos Misunderstood As Ash Damage — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net
These pictures and the engine damage are NOT DUE TO VOLCANIC ASH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know for a fact that the engine damage is NOT from a volcanic ash event. It is an engine diffuser failure. I work for Cessna and have this fact confirmed by Customer Service, Cessna Engineering Propulsion. This is a hoax that has been spreading on the internet. I have seen these photos a couple of weeks ago and have confirmed that it is NOT DUE TO VOLCANIC ASH.
I know for a fact that the engine damage is NOT from a volcanic ash event. It is an engine diffuser failure. I work for Cessna and have this fact confirmed by Customer Service, Cessna Engineering Propulsion. This is a hoax that has been spreading on the internet. I have seen these photos a couple of weeks ago and have confirmed that it is NOT DUE TO VOLCANIC ASH.
Pictures here.
Engine Damage Photos Misunderstood As Ash Damage — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net
Last edited by forget; 19th May 2010 at 09:25.
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PBL
This is the sort of mindless, plain ignorant hyping that has caused us to be where we are today at vast cost to our industry.
Do you believe anything you are told or see at face value without questioning it ?
As a professional researcher you should know better!
Pace
This is the sort of mindless, plain ignorant hyping that has caused us to be where we are today at vast cost to our industry.
Do you believe anything you are told or see at face value without questioning it ?
As a professional researcher you should know better!
Pace
