Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 1
From: In the boot of my car!
I gues ultimately your right.
I do not know whether I and others are right or not so maybe add "ultimately HOPE your right"
Life is a risk and many things we do is about risk assessment someone obviously decided it was a tiny risk worth taking.
Pace
BTW have enjoyed your posts thanks
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: Strathallan, Relaxed, Scotland
What a con job it was!
This was the greatest example of bureaucratic backside-covering the world has seen. Thank heavens the politicians have now intervened.
Here is an volcano close-up video and pronunciation guide -
The Icelanders did not restrict how close to Eyjafjallajokull an aircraft can fly - the decision-making was left where it should have been left. in the cockpit.
How many lives were lost because patients could not get to their hospitals and doctors? How many because medications, organs, and radioactive isotopes were not delivered? How many were lost because people drove long distances instead of flying?
Let's hope the damage done on this occasion leads to a re-think about "nervous nelly" regulation.
Here is an volcano close-up video and pronunciation guide -
The Icelanders did not restrict how close to Eyjafjallajokull an aircraft can fly - the decision-making was left where it should have been left. in the cockpit.
How many lives were lost because patients could not get to their hospitals and doctors? How many because medications, organs, and radioactive isotopes were not delivered? How many were lost because people drove long distances instead of flying?
Let's hope the damage done on this occasion leads to a re-think about "nervous nelly" regulation.
Last edited by Boyd Munro; 27th April 2010 at 17:05.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 410
Likes: 87
From: EASA territory
Looks like I was right all along.
Please re-read my post nr. 819 posted on april 18th.
Looks like I was right all along!
Please read this article: "The ash cloud that never was: How volcanic plume over UK was only a twentieth of safe-flying limit and blunders led to ban."
As a Belgian, I do not know the reputation of the "Daily Mail", but please take the time to read the article. I think it's spot on!
Best regards,
Sabenaboy
Looks like I was right all along!
Please read this article: "The ash cloud that never was: How volcanic plume over UK was only a twentieth of safe-flying limit and blunders led to ban."
As a Belgian, I do not know the reputation of the "Daily Mail", but please take the time to read the article. I think it's spot on!
Best regards,
Sabenaboy
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
The Icelanders did not restrict how close to Eyjafjallajokull an aircraft can fly
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: UK
Engine Costs
Do any beancounters read this forum? I am wondering about the effect of flying through an ash cloud that was sufficiently dispersed to not be an immediate danger to the particular flight but which would gravely shorten engine life. A poster has already said that it takes about ninety minutes to check an engine that may have been exposed to volcanic ash. This is after the ginger has finished his tea break, finished the must do job, and got his tools together. It would be risky to assume the aeroplane would be declared serviceable until the inspection was complete. Also, who is to judge, and on what data, that the aircraft was exposed to ash?
Can anyone shed any light on the costs involved? I am wondering if it was judged to be cheaper to ground everyone at least until the cost of not doing so was known and a method of forecasting the extent of the ash cloud had been developed.
Can anyone shed any light on the costs involved? I am wondering if it was judged to be cheaper to ground everyone at least until the cost of not doing so was known and a method of forecasting the extent of the ash cloud had been developed.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: sandpit
Dangerous Ash?
We as professional pilots know that commercial pressures have won out.
Where is the evidence to back up these new so called safe limits and who exactly measures them?
Its one thing for the public to be fooled where is the voice of reason from our own community. This problem will occur again NOW is the time for various pilot representatives to be vocal if the governing agencies wont protect the traveling public then surely we MUST!!
Where is the evidence to back up these new so called safe limits and who exactly measures them?
Its one thing for the public to be fooled where is the voice of reason from our own community. This problem will occur again NOW is the time for various pilot representatives to be vocal if the governing agencies wont protect the traveling public then surely we MUST!!
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 1
From: Florida
We as professional pilots know that commercial pressures have won out.
Where is the evidence to back up these new so called safe limits and who exactly measures them?
Its one thing for the public to be fooled where is the voice of reason from our own community. This problem will occur again NOW is the time for various pilot representatives to be vocal if the governing agencies wont protect the traveling public then surely we MUST!!
Where is the evidence to back up these new so called safe limits and who exactly measures them?
Its one thing for the public to be fooled where is the voice of reason from our own community. This problem will occur again NOW is the time for various pilot representatives to be vocal if the governing agencies wont protect the traveling public then surely we MUST!!
This is more than than engine testing, it also has to do with geological, weather and routing. Take that data and weigh it against the historical experience of what has been safe, what has been unsafe , and what corner of the spectrum are we in today. I suspect that this has already been done with all the parties in conjunction.
From my read most of the nail biting has to do with lack of knowledge about what corner are we in today, the known or the unknown?
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte, NC USA
The FAA's current position on ash...
SAIB NE-10-28
Apparently the EASA will issue their position soon.
C2j
SAIB NE-10-28
Apparently the EASA will issue their position soon.
C2j
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Far east
About Aviation color code of volcanic ash.
A question is asked from Japan.
We operation the helicopter (EC135) in Japan.
Since there is only zone of Eurocontrol, Safety Information Notice which EC135 manufacturer's Eurocopter took out should teach it.
The Meteorological Agency of Japan Aviation color code is not use.
Is Aviation color code of Eurocontrol and ICAO(USSG) unified?
As for Eurocontrol, zone 1:black zone, zone 2:red zone, and ICAO (USSG) are green, yellow, orange, and red.
To what is the definition about zone1 and zone2 of Eurocontrol specified?
Best Regards.
pitchpitchjapjap
Eurocopter SIN2197-S-00(SUMMARY)
Due to the eruption of the volcano in Iceland EUROCOPTER has been contacted by many operators asking for
advice on how to proceed with their operation under these circumstances.
Flying in an atmosphere containing volcanic ash may affect the behaviour of the helicopter. Depending to the
variety of the particles (size, weight, density, chemical composition…) it may increase the probability of a partial
power loss, engine flame out, navigation and piloting instruments failure or other helicopter malfunctions. Flight in
such conditions may also decrease visibility and accelerate erosion of certain helicopter parts. In the past, on EC
helicopters, engine flame outs have been experienced after flight through industrial smoke.
As a consequence EUROCOPTER advises operators to avoid flight in area of high density volcanic ash
contamination (named zone 1 or black zone).
We operation the helicopter (EC135) in Japan.
Since there is only zone of Eurocontrol, Safety Information Notice which EC135 manufacturer's Eurocopter took out should teach it.
The Meteorological Agency of Japan Aviation color code is not use.
Is Aviation color code of Eurocontrol and ICAO(USSG) unified?
As for Eurocontrol, zone 1:black zone, zone 2:red zone, and ICAO (USSG) are green, yellow, orange, and red.
To what is the definition about zone1 and zone2 of Eurocontrol specified?
Best Regards.
pitchpitchjapjapEurocopter SIN2197-S-00(SUMMARY)
Due to the eruption of the volcano in Iceland EUROCOPTER has been contacted by many operators asking for
advice on how to proceed with their operation under these circumstances.
Flying in an atmosphere containing volcanic ash may affect the behaviour of the helicopter. Depending to the
variety of the particles (size, weight, density, chemical composition…) it may increase the probability of a partial
power loss, engine flame out, navigation and piloting instruments failure or other helicopter malfunctions. Flight in
such conditions may also decrease visibility and accelerate erosion of certain helicopter parts. In the past, on EC
helicopters, engine flame outs have been experienced after flight through industrial smoke.
As a consequence EUROCOPTER advises operators to avoid flight in area of high density volcanic ash
contamination (named zone 1 or black zone).
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: Turn left and left again
I love the way an event like this brings out the I was right all along brigade. Who cares! Bully for you.
Its easy for people to sit back and criticise when they don't have to step up and make the hard decisions. They don't get much harder than this.
With hind sight it was a very expensive over-reaction but in the future hopefully the data collected (and still being collected!!) and lessons learnt from the way the whole "crisis" was handled will prove invaluable.
Its like an aircraft accident. So many crucial lessons are taken from a disastrous event.
Its easy for people to sit back and criticise when they don't have to step up and make the hard decisions. They don't get much harder than this.
With hind sight it was a very expensive over-reaction but in the future hopefully the data collected (and still being collected!!) and lessons learnt from the way the whole "crisis" was handled will prove invaluable.
Its like an aircraft accident. So many crucial lessons are taken from a disastrous event.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 1,274
Likes: 0
From: Glen Prosen, Scotland
Part of the problem is that, should a pilot make a wrong decision - particularly of this magnitude - then they are castigated, investigated, possibly prosecuted and more
i.e. held to account.
We are waiting......
i.e. held to account.
We are waiting......
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 1
From: Florida
Its easy for people to sit back and criticise when they don't have to step up and make the hard decisions. They don't get much harder than this.
With hind sight it was a very expensive over-reaction but in the future hopefully the data collected (and still being collected!!) and lessons learnt from the way the whole "crisis" was handled will prove invaluable.
Its like an aircraft accident. So many crucial lessons are taken from a disastrous event.
With hind sight it was a very expensive over-reaction but in the future hopefully the data collected (and still being collected!!) and lessons learnt from the way the whole "crisis" was handled will prove invaluable.
Its like an aircraft accident. So many crucial lessons are taken from a disastrous event.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: sandpit
Pilots Only
Where is the empirical evidence from engine/airframe manufacturers to warrant anything but zero tolerance?
This situation is absolute madness where is the communication from airline pilots representatives worldwide?
This situation is possibly putting peoples lives at risk due to commercial expediency
Show the public the evidence.
The time to say and act is now before the next eruption!
If you are a professional pilot use this forum to voice your concerns
and if you ado not have any concerns PLEASE SAY WHY NOT HERE
This situation is absolute madness where is the communication from airline pilots representatives worldwide?
This situation is possibly putting peoples lives at risk due to commercial expediency
Show the public the evidence.
The time to say and act is now before the next eruption!
If you are a professional pilot use this forum to voice your concerns
and if you ado not have any concerns PLEASE SAY WHY NOT HERE
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1
From: UK
BD
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 1
From: Florida
Uuumm, you've obviously not read through the thread. IATA were invited to provide input to ICAO when the VA guidance was being written. They didn't turn up, so the guidance was zero tolerance. When it was published IATA still didn't respond. Responding after the event is too late.
BD
BD
Perhaps I read the thread thoroughly as did many others but still don't get a passing grade, but what the heck that's what discussion forums are all about or we all flunk
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
From: Durham
Claire
I'n not a pilot. Of course in you view that makes anything I say invalid. So be it.
Just a few things you ought to know. You use the term empirical evidence. It means specifically evidence obtained via senses. Capt Moody has a lot of empirical evdience that flying through ash is bad for prolonged flight and engine function. As empirical evidence goes its very convincing. I'm sure Capt Moody had all the empirical evidence he needed when all four engines on his 747 went out. He wasnt the only pilot who experienced empirical evidence that volcanic ash and engines do not go well together. So empirical evidence means that flying into ash clouds can upset your afternoon somewhat. apologies for the sarcasm.
OK so what is needed is quantitiave analysis - we know that aircraft can do some very scary things in volcanic ash. If I have to nail home my point, that is empirical evidence. The next step from empirical evidence is that a problem is known, so how severe is the problem? Quantitive analysis means to evaluate how much of the nasty stuff which coats turbine blades with glass and blocks pitot tubes makes the aircraft unsafe and secondarily, makes the components of the aircraft liable to failure earlier than design specs. My concern is that the quanititive analysis should not have economic pressures applied on it. I'm all ears to hear construcitve quanititive analysis of the volcoanic ash problem.
I'n not a pilot. Of course in you view that makes anything I say invalid. So be it.
Just a few things you ought to know. You use the term empirical evidence. It means specifically evidence obtained via senses. Capt Moody has a lot of empirical evdience that flying through ash is bad for prolonged flight and engine function. As empirical evidence goes its very convincing. I'm sure Capt Moody had all the empirical evidence he needed when all four engines on his 747 went out. He wasnt the only pilot who experienced empirical evidence that volcanic ash and engines do not go well together. So empirical evidence means that flying into ash clouds can upset your afternoon somewhat. apologies for the sarcasm.
OK so what is needed is quantitiave analysis - we know that aircraft can do some very scary things in volcanic ash. If I have to nail home my point, that is empirical evidence. The next step from empirical evidence is that a problem is known, so how severe is the problem? Quantitive analysis means to evaluate how much of the nasty stuff which coats turbine blades with glass and blocks pitot tubes makes the aircraft unsafe and secondarily, makes the components of the aircraft liable to failure earlier than design specs. My concern is that the quanititive analysis should not have economic pressures applied on it. I'm all ears to hear construcitve quanititive analysis of the volcoanic ash problem.