Virgin restarts recruitment
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: slumped in front of PC
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>In 1976 a military VC-10 on Royal duty coughed and an inboard Spey was changed in 6 hours 50 minutes by two resident ground engineers.<<
Hopefully turned into a Conway I trust?? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Hopefully turned into a Conway I trust?? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Inside the M25
Posts: 2,404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's one of the laws of business in the Murphy group, isn't it? "People rise to their level of incompetence." Or put another way, if you have somebody who is technically good, and somebody who is a good manager, you promote the technically good person because otherwise they will go somewhere else.
Denzil, many apologies. My sympathies do also lie with you engineer type chaps, it's just that I find it hard to see past my own predicament! I will get the first round in on friday, but only if I get a good 'see off' tomorrow <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
On the serious note, it has been noticed by the flight deck how the engineers have been cut back too much. All my recent trips have had good dispatch reliability (good old -400), but I don't think we will be making our gate times if we need any more than a minimal ammount of rectification.
PS: remember, I'm the one being made 'redundant', so it's your second round!
PPS: Clive should be coming out to play on Friday as well.
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: Dan Winterland ]</p>
On the serious note, it has been noticed by the flight deck how the engineers have been cut back too much. All my recent trips have had good dispatch reliability (good old -400), but I don't think we will be making our gate times if we need any more than a minimal ammount of rectification.
PS: remember, I'm the one being made 'redundant', so it's your second round!
PPS: Clive should be coming out to play on Friday as well.
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: Dan Winterland ]</p>
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like tired, I'm not convinced either that the Classic will be retained after April, or that we are likely to see new (or restored) routes this summer. Loads on most routes are very good now, and yields are improving, but not to the point where an increase in costs and risk is likely to be entertained - yet. The likely need to recruit cabin crew this spring is, I'm sure, more to do with the very large cabin crew turnover the airline has experienced (as far as I am aware, there have been very few redundancies necessary in cabin crew - so many leave in the normal course of things), than any envisaged expansion - or admission of undermanning.
As for the problems now stored up for the future by the speed and brutality of the redundancy, I suspect that, unless the overall market improves substantially, not many of those who talk about it will actually leave, and few of those asked back could afford to refuse. In the prosperous years hopefully to come thereafter, however, who knows....
As for the problems now stored up for the future by the speed and brutality of the redundancy, I suspect that, unless the overall market improves substantially, not many of those who talk about it will actually leave, and few of those asked back could afford to refuse. In the prosperous years hopefully to come thereafter, however, who knows....
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am fascinated by this thread because I have not seen anyone include what they think would be a reasonable way of dealing with the situation.
I am only a PPL but I do own a business that does about £1m per week of business.
I have seen businesses in the city (London) cut back their I.T. departments to the bone (and beyond) and I wonder what I could do if it looked as if my business was about to be hit.
I process the paperwork, raise invoices, pay the payroll for temporary workers.
In September one of my agencies that provided aircraft technicians to one company had the whole contract stopped (about £100k per week).
Those workers just found themselves out of work and I guess the effects have hit many different industries.
I have been lucky (working around the clock) because I managed to find so many new customers that I did not have to make any cut backs but how could I have dealt with the situation if I had to consider letting some staff go ?
What I want to know is what do you think the airlines should/could have done ?
The facts of life are that the priorities for any business owner or managing director will always be:
1. The survival of the business.
(without that everyone is out of a job)
2. The profitability of the business.
(without that priority 1 will be a real problem soon)
3. All of the other things that you can only do with the money. like customer satisfaction. staff well being etc...
If you were running an airline how would you have dealt with the situation ?
I am only a PPL but I do own a business that does about £1m per week of business.
I have seen businesses in the city (London) cut back their I.T. departments to the bone (and beyond) and I wonder what I could do if it looked as if my business was about to be hit.
I process the paperwork, raise invoices, pay the payroll for temporary workers.
In September one of my agencies that provided aircraft technicians to one company had the whole contract stopped (about £100k per week).
Those workers just found themselves out of work and I guess the effects have hit many different industries.
I have been lucky (working around the clock) because I managed to find so many new customers that I did not have to make any cut backs but how could I have dealt with the situation if I had to consider letting some staff go ?
What I want to know is what do you think the airlines should/could have done ?
The facts of life are that the priorities for any business owner or managing director will always be:
1. The survival of the business.
(without that everyone is out of a job)
2. The profitability of the business.
(without that priority 1 will be a real problem soon)
3. All of the other things that you can only do with the money. like customer satisfaction. staff well being etc...
If you were running an airline how would you have dealt with the situation ?
Aviator at 8.00pm, just a few bods getting together to celebrate (if that's the right word?) one pilot's last trip.
Scroggs - Quite a few people have found other jobs already, and many may not be tempted back. One of the reasons why I joined Virgin was the prospect of a of a reasonably quick command -by long haul standards anyway. A command is now so far over the horizon, it makes staying with Virgins' lower than industry standard pay attractive no longer .
Scroggs - Quite a few people have found other jobs already, and many may not be tempted back. One of the reasons why I joined Virgin was the prospect of a of a reasonably quick command -by long haul standards anyway. A command is now so far over the horizon, it makes staying with Virgins' lower than industry standard pay attractive no longer .
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 35K
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I flew with VS on new years day to JNB, and came back with SQ via SIN in F. I was impressed and like a few of the VS elements that have found its way into SQ service. However it appears that another element has crept in. SFO-LHR was 10.05 flight time, now 09.45. That 20 minutes is critical to a lot of companies, who have 10 + policies for J class travel. As I see it VS have changed thier flight time to match BA, and as a result I have to sit in the nosebleed seats - or fly with UA in a 777 that takes 10.40
I am just a pax, so my opinion counts for nothing
I am just a pax, so my opinion counts for nothing
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dan - I know pretty much how many have already found other jobs, and I don't doubt that there will be more (see the last para in my previous post), but I think that as a proportion of those who talk about leaving, it's a fairly small number. As for those who will or won't come back, surely that rather depends on what their economic circumstances are at the time? Unless you have a 737 rating, there ain't many long-term posts in prospect in UK just now (747 ACMI operators just don't cut it as secure long-term employers), so I suspect that many of our now-redundant colleagues would have little choice but to accept an invite back, if it came in the next 18 months or so. That, of course, does not imply that they would again commit to VS for the long term!
V50 The flight time change SFO-LHR is most likely to to an equipment change from Airbus to B744. The A340 is 2-3% or so slower than the 744, which may go some way to explaining any recent schedule variations. At the moment, there is much juggling of aircraft going on as the route and equipment changes annouced post-9/11 take their final shape.
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: Scroggs ]</p>
V50 The flight time change SFO-LHR is most likely to to an equipment change from Airbus to B744. The A340 is 2-3% or so slower than the 744, which may go some way to explaining any recent schedule variations. At the moment, there is much juggling of aircraft going on as the route and equipment changes annouced post-9/11 take their final shape.
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: Scroggs ]</p>
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 35K
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
V50 being the cunning bastard that he is just pointed out that he lives in MAN. Sadly that means flying with British Arseholes and Ugly Americans but does allow me to fly with Verynice Stewardesses on the way home in Upper Class.
Company policy says 10+ so 9.45 + LHR-MAN = 10.28.
Happy Happy Joy Joy
V50
Company policy says 10+ so 9.45 + LHR-MAN = 10.28.
Happy Happy Joy Joy
V50
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm really not too surprised to hear Virgin are soon to recruit as it has been a lash up from the start, offers of voluntary redundancies were quickly taken up by Cabin crew as they all appeared to realise they could take the money, have a few months off then be recruited in the new year. Thanks Dick.
Not that great a way to save money though. Also strange how crew worked this out and overpaid, overstaffed management (or company council) failed to notice.
Talking of company council, did anyone actually get asked by cc for an opinion or maybe a vote?
How did the comms go during negotiation?
Does this system work, as in my experience, this has generally been a bone of contention and used by the cc guys for there own means, in the guise of the greater good. Maybe something like accepting lots of redundancies and taking a poor pay deal / freeze, worse conditions, crew food cutbacks etc, but some keeping fairly comfy.
Ring any bells?
Not that great a way to save money though. Also strange how crew worked this out and overpaid, overstaffed management (or company council) failed to notice.
Talking of company council, did anyone actually get asked by cc for an opinion or maybe a vote?
How did the comms go during negotiation?
Does this system work, as in my experience, this has generally been a bone of contention and used by the cc guys for there own means, in the guise of the greater good. Maybe something like accepting lots of redundancies and taking a poor pay deal / freeze, worse conditions, crew food cutbacks etc, but some keeping fairly comfy.
Ring any bells?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Everybody associated with the CC have been doing an excellent job looking after their mates. They have done s0d all for the guys NOT NECESSARILY at the bottom of the seniority list who are being made redundant.
In my opinion, ANY money you give to BALPA is a complete waste (unless you're a training captain, senior captain, etc when you'll get looked after.)
The whole process has been a complete b@lls up.
Thanks for nothing.
In my opinion, ANY money you give to BALPA is a complete waste (unless you're a training captain, senior captain, etc when you'll get looked after.)
The whole process has been a complete b@lls up.
Thanks for nothing.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LRRP
Apologies that no one has answered your excellent post. Also apologies to engineers and cabin crew - you are every bit as important as us but this being the PPRUNE I will talk about pilots!
I am a pilot which is a job I love doing. I am not a 'manager', and have no desire to be one, but have considerable sympathies with management. The bottom line is that money-in must exceed money-out. Without that there is no viable business. Pilots are sometimes guilty of not recognising that. The answer to your question is that if the money is not there to support the business, then managers must act quickly to reduce numbers or there will be no future for anyone. I do not know the specifics of VS's management failures, but I cannot think what else they could have done given the financial disaster that was looming. There has been much criticism of companies using Sep 11 as an opportunity to 'weed the garden', but my own view is that it just caused companies to wake up and get real over the state of their finances. VS were about to make cuts before Sep 11, as were bmi, Gill, British Airways, Maersk, British European, ScotAirways, British World etc etc. Sep 11 may have forced their hand but all was not well before then. This has lead to massive cuts in the pilot workforce in the UK as we all know (and loads of others as well- but this is about pilots please remember). Any manager worth his salt had to make hard decisions and many have done.
I do not know how many pilots have lost their jobs in the UK (hundreds) in the last few months, but maybe pilots should be considering how many foreign pilots are working here under 'flag of convenience' passports. At a time when no British Frozen ATPL can get a job, our UK-based airlines continue to recruit experienced pilots from overseas because it is more 'cost-effective'. That is the 'management issue' that I would deal with.
Apologies that no one has answered your excellent post. Also apologies to engineers and cabin crew - you are every bit as important as us but this being the PPRUNE I will talk about pilots!
I am a pilot which is a job I love doing. I am not a 'manager', and have no desire to be one, but have considerable sympathies with management. The bottom line is that money-in must exceed money-out. Without that there is no viable business. Pilots are sometimes guilty of not recognising that. The answer to your question is that if the money is not there to support the business, then managers must act quickly to reduce numbers or there will be no future for anyone. I do not know the specifics of VS's management failures, but I cannot think what else they could have done given the financial disaster that was looming. There has been much criticism of companies using Sep 11 as an opportunity to 'weed the garden', but my own view is that it just caused companies to wake up and get real over the state of their finances. VS were about to make cuts before Sep 11, as were bmi, Gill, British Airways, Maersk, British European, ScotAirways, British World etc etc. Sep 11 may have forced their hand but all was not well before then. This has lead to massive cuts in the pilot workforce in the UK as we all know (and loads of others as well- but this is about pilots please remember). Any manager worth his salt had to make hard decisions and many have done.
I do not know how many pilots have lost their jobs in the UK (hundreds) in the last few months, but maybe pilots should be considering how many foreign pilots are working here under 'flag of convenience' passports. At a time when no British Frozen ATPL can get a job, our UK-based airlines continue to recruit experienced pilots from overseas because it is more 'cost-effective'. That is the 'management issue' that I would deal with.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norman, we are all aware that drastic action was needed. Some companies handled it better than others and that is where the management deficiencies show up.
VS has had appaling man management from the start. There has been virtually no flow of information from our management. Every request for more information is met with a stony silence. They are unwilling to re-evaluate any decisions and seem pre-occupied with not losing face.
No opportunity is missed to deal another blow to our overall package (poor as it was before!). And I suspect that there is some motivation to try and teach the pilots a lesson after we all voted for union recognition last year.
I will be leaving in 2 months time and believe me I will not be sad to go.
And as for BALPA.....!
VS has had appaling man management from the start. There has been virtually no flow of information from our management. Every request for more information is met with a stony silence. They are unwilling to re-evaluate any decisions and seem pre-occupied with not losing face.
No opportunity is missed to deal another blow to our overall package (poor as it was before!). And I suspect that there is some motivation to try and teach the pilots a lesson after we all voted for union recognition last year.
I will be leaving in 2 months time and believe me I will not be sad to go.
And as for BALPA.....!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The Twilight Zone
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand that Virgin will now operate MAN- MCO this summer with a Classic. Will they recall any of the redundant Flightdeck to crew it, or have they got their crewing levels right ?