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Bad Airmanship

Old 29th Mar 2010, 17:29
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Bad Airmanship

Report: Air Nostrum CRJ2 at Barcelona on Jan 24th 2007, belly landing

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Old 29th Mar 2010, 17:55
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I wonder if the EGPWS had spoken Spanish would it have changed the outcome. As a native English speaker I cannot think that I would not have looked at the gear at least once if it was saying too low gear 15 times.
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 17:56
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Amazed that a gear warning alert was ignored 15 times by two pilots!

Bad Airmanship is an understatement!!!
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 18:15
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The captain accepted the airplane in view of the earlier reported flaps problems and their own ground testing, which included extending and retracting the flaps a number of times. In support of the captain's decision to accept the airplane were the long runways available at Barcelona. The captain was also confident of being able to handle a flapless landing, as he had performed such a flaps up landing earlier in his career already.
and

The workload in the cockpit was high with both pilots concentrating on the flaps system anomaly complemented by a high number of radio transmissions and the windshear concerns radioed by previous traffic. The crew completed the abnormal checklists concerning the failed flaps, however, the captain subsequently did not call for the landing checklists, that are designed exactly for encounters of high stress levels, when human performance is known to degrade.
The report seems to indicate that they had already assumed the landing might be without flaps.

Wonder what happened in the last few moments...
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 22:36
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Couldn't think for all of the noise. Seem to remember that happening to a Mirage driver landing at Tullamarine many years ago.

Don't be surprised at how anyone can be overloaded in the right circumstances.
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 22:55
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fish

As wiser men once said:
'You know that your landing gear is up and locked when it takes full power to taxi to the terminal.'
- Lead-in Fighter Training Manual -
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 23:08
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Something to think about...

I don't know what went through the minds of the Flightcrew. Being a Boeing pilot, I'm going out on a limb here assuming the GPWS system has similar callouts. I think that mabye the crew, knowing that they would be getting a "TOO LOW FLAPS" warning, disregarded the "TOO LOW GEAR" warning as it's substitute. You know, in this situation your "expecting that damm warning to go off", and being human, heard what they wanted to hear.
How many of us are guilty of that.

But for the Grace of God go I......
Fly safe
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 23:32
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Que?? Si ! What???
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Old 29th Mar 2010, 23:54
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There's an (in)famous clip on Youtube showing a couple of guys doing a forced landing practice in a C172 or 182 RG. The camera guy is in the rear seat.

During the whole exercise you can hear the gear warning horn sounding right down to the point where they flare and touch the ground.

I have very nearly done it myself in similar circumstances. Concentrating very hard on the task in hand and the gear horn becomes just another noise in the background.
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 00:03
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I think the crew got distracted by the flap problem so forgot the normal landing checklist. I admit I once through distraction found my self finding out at 200 ft where I always do visual gear, flaps, speedbrakes that the speedbrakes were not armed and noticed none of the before landing check had been done. Thank God I am a speed reader because in the flare everything was done.

They weren't as lucky to have a last chance personal visual scan in their landing to notice the problem. Warning horns when you know something is non standard can be ignored quite easily because you expect it may happen. They probably both thought it was a flap warning and didn't heed the gear warning. We all know it will never happen again. Remember "those that have and those that will"? Gear up landings for the new guys.
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 00:35
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Limited experience

Report: Air Nostrum CRJ2 at Barcelona on Jan 24th 2007, belly landing


A reply to a forum attached to the above report suggests the captain had only 202hrs as captain while FO had only 200.

Sobering image
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 02:17
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Yes, the brain can be a dangerous thing when it starts filling in the blanks for us or associates an observation with the wrong thing.

Was unfortunate enough to witness a tragic example some years back at a railway crossing with boom gates.
Police car came up to boom gates obviously in a hurry to get somewhere.
Driver looked at the stationary train at the platform still loading passengers, figured he'd get across comfortably and drove around the end of the boom gates to get across.

Express from the other direction cleaned him up.
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 02:19
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I'm not familiar with this type, but with the 737NG right now.

Is it the case that, following the realization that a flapless landing will be necessary, that the crew cannot disable the "TO LOW FLAP" GPWS aural warning?

This is 'normally' done during the non-normal checklist as a result of the malfunction, is it not?

I would bet that, had the "TO LOW FLAP" GPWS warning been inhibited, the gear warning "TO LOW GEAR" would have been the trigger to do something!

Simply because, having inhibited the flap warning within the checklist, they would not have expected any warnings, and that warning aural may have woken them up to the oversight!

....or get a flight engineer!

Cheers...FD...
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 03:57
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IIRC, it was the Capt of an Aerolineas Argentinas 747 on approach to EMAD more than 20 years ago who got the "whoop, whoop, Pull Up!"

Calla Te, Gringo! was his response just before they crashed short of the runway. (Shut up, Gringo!)

GB

Edit: OK, IRII, I recalled it incorrectly. It was Avianca. Thanks for the corrections following.

Last edited by Graybeard; 30th Mar 2010 at 12:04.
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 06:57
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GrayBeard,

I have a feeling you are maligning Aerolineas Argentina incorrectly.

Was it not a different South American carrier whose commander immortalised that infamous remark?

BSD

(just another gringo!)
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 07:18
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Be aware

An old saying was that there are those who have landed with the wheels up and those who are going to land with the wheels up.

What helped me in my career was that the gear down action was always carried out prior to intercepting final and glide slope.

Tmb
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 07:31
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The RAT

The picture shows the RAT has deployed. The landing deceleration was 1.16G. Not enough to shake the RAT loose. How come it's deployed?
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 07:50
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Well, I guess the WOW switches were never activated

(Not familiar with the CRJ, but on other types the RAT will deploy in case all AC buses fail with the aircraft being airborne)

Maybe a WOB switch would be helpful (weight on belly)
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 09:11
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Airmanship seems to have become a dirty word these days being replaced by SOPs.

I don't know the CRJ at all, but does the flapless landing QRH checklist include an item for 'gear down' expect EGPWS warnings somewhere?
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Old 30th Mar 2010, 09:25
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202 hours as a captain and prepared to take off for a high probability flapless landing? What sort of command training did he/she have?
What worries me is the attitude!
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