Bad Airmanship
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: HERE
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 47
Posts: 1,007
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder if the EGPWS had spoken Spanish would it have changed the outcome. As a native English speaker I cannot think that I would not have looked at the gear at least once if it was saying too low gear 15 times.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The captain accepted the airplane in view of the earlier reported flaps problems and their own ground testing, which included extending and retracting the flaps a number of times. In support of the captain's decision to accept the airplane were the long runways available at Barcelona. The captain was also confident of being able to handle a flapless landing, as he had performed such a flaps up landing earlier in his career already.
The workload in the cockpit was high with both pilots concentrating on the flaps system anomaly complemented by a high number of radio transmissions and the windshear concerns radioed by previous traffic. The crew completed the abnormal checklists concerning the failed flaps, however, the captain subsequently did not call for the landing checklists, that are designed exactly for encounters of high stress levels, when human performance is known to degrade.
Wonder what happened in the last few moments...
Couldn't think for all of the noise. Seem to remember that happening to a Mirage driver landing at Tullamarine many years ago.
Don't be surprised at how anyone can be overloaded in the right circumstances.
Don't be surprised at how anyone can be overloaded in the right circumstances.
Just a numbered other
As wiser men once said:
'You know that your landing gear is up and locked when it takes full power to taxi to the terminal.'
- Lead-in Fighter Training Manual -
- Lead-in Fighter Training Manual -
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Something to think about...
I don't know what went through the minds of the Flightcrew. Being a Boeing pilot, I'm going out on a limb here assuming the GPWS system has similar callouts. I think that mabye the crew, knowing that they would be getting a "TOO LOW FLAPS" warning, disregarded the "TOO LOW GEAR" warning as it's substitute. You know, in this situation your "expecting that damm warning to go off", and being human, heard what they wanted to hear.
How many of us are guilty of that.
But for the Grace of God go I......
Fly safe
How many of us are guilty of that.
But for the Grace of God go I......
Fly safe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's an (in)famous clip on Youtube showing a couple of guys doing a forced landing practice in a C172 or 182 RG. The camera guy is in the rear seat.
During the whole exercise you can hear the gear warning horn sounding right down to the point where they flare and touch the ground.
I have very nearly done it myself in similar circumstances. Concentrating very hard on the task in hand and the gear horn becomes just another noise in the background.
During the whole exercise you can hear the gear warning horn sounding right down to the point where they flare and touch the ground.
I have very nearly done it myself in similar circumstances. Concentrating very hard on the task in hand and the gear horn becomes just another noise in the background.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the crew got distracted by the flap problem so forgot the normal landing checklist. I admit I once through distraction found my self finding out at 200 ft where I always do visual gear, flaps, speedbrakes that the speedbrakes were not armed and noticed none of the before landing check had been done. Thank God I am a speed reader because in the flare everything was done.
They weren't as lucky to have a last chance personal visual scan in their landing to notice the problem. Warning horns when you know something is non standard can be ignored quite easily because you expect it may happen. They probably both thought it was a flap warning and didn't heed the gear warning. We all know it will never happen again. Remember "those that have and those that will"? Gear up landings for the new guys.
They weren't as lucky to have a last chance personal visual scan in their landing to notice the problem. Warning horns when you know something is non standard can be ignored quite easily because you expect it may happen. They probably both thought it was a flap warning and didn't heed the gear warning. We all know it will never happen again. Remember "those that have and those that will"? Gear up landings for the new guys.
Limited experience
Report: Air Nostrum CRJ2 at Barcelona on Jan 24th 2007, belly landing
A reply to a forum attached to the above report suggests the captain had only 202hrs as captain while FO had only 200.
Sobering image
A reply to a forum attached to the above report suggests the captain had only 202hrs as captain while FO had only 200.
Sobering image
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where else?
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, the brain can be a dangerous thing when it starts filling in the blanks for us or associates an observation with the wrong thing.
Was unfortunate enough to witness a tragic example some years back at a railway crossing with boom gates.
Police car came up to boom gates obviously in a hurry to get somewhere.
Driver looked at the stationary train at the platform still loading passengers, figured he'd get across comfortably and drove around the end of the boom gates to get across.
Express from the other direction cleaned him up.
Was unfortunate enough to witness a tragic example some years back at a railway crossing with boom gates.
Police car came up to boom gates obviously in a hurry to get somewhere.
Driver looked at the stationary train at the platform still loading passengers, figured he'd get across comfortably and drove around the end of the boom gates to get across.
Express from the other direction cleaned him up.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not familiar with this type, but with the 737NG right now.
Is it the case that, following the realization that a flapless landing will be necessary, that the crew cannot disable the "TO LOW FLAP" GPWS aural warning?
This is 'normally' done during the non-normal checklist as a result of the malfunction, is it not?
I would bet that, had the "TO LOW FLAP" GPWS warning been inhibited, the gear warning "TO LOW GEAR" would have been the trigger to do something!
Simply because, having inhibited the flap warning within the checklist, they would not have expected any warnings, and that warning aural may have woken them up to the oversight!
....or get a flight engineer!
Cheers...FD...
Is it the case that, following the realization that a flapless landing will be necessary, that the crew cannot disable the "TO LOW FLAP" GPWS aural warning?
This is 'normally' done during the non-normal checklist as a result of the malfunction, is it not?
I would bet that, had the "TO LOW FLAP" GPWS warning been inhibited, the gear warning "TO LOW GEAR" would have been the trigger to do something!
Simply because, having inhibited the flap warning within the checklist, they would not have expected any warnings, and that warning aural may have woken them up to the oversight!
....or get a flight engineer!
Cheers...FD...
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SoCalif
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IIRC, it was the Capt of an Aerolineas Argentinas 747 on approach to EMAD more than 20 years ago who got the "whoop, whoop, Pull Up!"
Calla Te, Gringo! was his response just before they crashed short of the runway. (Shut up, Gringo!)
GB
Edit: OK, IRII, I recalled it incorrectly. It was Avianca. Thanks for the corrections following.
Calla Te, Gringo! was his response just before they crashed short of the runway. (Shut up, Gringo!)
GB
Edit: OK, IRII, I recalled it incorrectly. It was Avianca. Thanks for the corrections following.
Last edited by Graybeard; 30th Mar 2010 at 12:04.
GrayBeard,
I have a feeling you are maligning Aerolineas Argentina incorrectly.
Was it not a different South American carrier whose commander immortalised that infamous remark?
BSD
(just another gringo!)
I have a feeling you are maligning Aerolineas Argentina incorrectly.
Was it not a different South American carrier whose commander immortalised that infamous remark?
BSD
(just another gringo!)
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: France
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Be aware
An old saying was that there are those who have landed with the wheels up and those who are going to land with the wheels up.
What helped me in my career was that the gear down action was always carried out prior to intercepting final and glide slope.
Tmb
What helped me in my career was that the gear down action was always carried out prior to intercepting final and glide slope.
Tmb
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Germany
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I guess the WOW switches were never activated 
(Not familiar with the CRJ, but on other types the RAT will deploy in case all AC buses fail with the aircraft being airborne)
Maybe a WOB switch would be helpful (weight on belly)
(Not familiar with the CRJ, but on other types the RAT will deploy in case all AC buses fail with the aircraft being airborne)
Maybe a WOB switch would be helpful (weight on belly)
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: HON121º/14 NM
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airmanship seems to have become a dirty word these days being replaced by SOPs.
I don't know the CRJ at all, but does the flapless landing QRH checklist include an item for 'gear down' expect EGPWS warnings somewhere?
I don't know the CRJ at all, but does the flapless landing QRH checklist include an item for 'gear down' expect EGPWS warnings somewhere?
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Next to Bloggs
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
202 hours as a captain and prepared to take off for a high probability flapless landing? What sort of command training did he/she have?
What worries me is the attitude!
What worries me is the attitude!