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Fedex DC10 stalls in holding pattern

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Fedex DC10 stalls in holding pattern

Old 24th Mar 2010, 20:16
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Fedex DC10 stalls in holding pattern

I just heard about this...does anyone want to post it and talk about it? Sounds like another case of button pushing and forgetting to fly the darn thing.
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Old 24th Mar 2010, 20:21
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Report: Fedex DC10 near Raymond on Jun 14th 2008, aerodynamic stall while in holding

I wonder how the damage was caused?
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Old 24th Mar 2010, 20:56
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It seems to be a DC10 thing. If I remember correctly a Ghana 10 had similar damage a few years ago when getting into a low speed regime near top of climb.
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Old 24th Mar 2010, 21:03
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From the above link
"...the stickshaker activated 5 seconds later and continued to operate for about one minute. A series of pitch oscillation between 2 and 12 degrees nose up occured. While the stick shaker was active, the airplane descended from FL340 to FL306 and subsequently reached FL290 at 230 KIAS.


Hard work for elevators and stabilizer I'd imagine
Pete

Last edited by Ford Transit; 24th Mar 2010 at 21:30. Reason: tidying
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Old 24th Mar 2010, 22:00
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It was an MD-10.....
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Old 24th Mar 2010, 22:10
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Indeed it was and the same massive wing root must have some really dirty air flying off it when in low speed buffet, no wonder there was damage. I'm just waiting for one or two of my FE mates to claim it wouldn't have happened with a third pair of eyes in the FD. Whatever the argument I certainly felt more comfortable with them behind me be it in the 10 or the 74.
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Old 24th Mar 2010, 23:31
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It's the disturbed air off the wing that tears up the flippers. Stall will damage the ailerons, too.

Back in Septober 1979, a grossed out Aeromebbe DC10-30 climbing out of MAD was in Altitude Capture mode to 310, with 1500 fpm selected on the VS hold. The engines couldn't hold 1500 fpm beyond FL 270, so the nose came up until it stalled - deeply. Overhead panels fell in the cabin, etc.

The Capt didn't recognize the stall, (no STALL indicator lamp in his face like a DC-9) so he declared Mayday. For some reason, he decided #3 engine was vibrating, so pulled it back. That put the plane into a spiral, which he recognized. After recovering at 10K feet, he canceled the Mayday and continued on to KMIA. When he was met by ground ops, he reported everything normal. Only on the walkaround did they see both elevator horns missing, and other damage, so he quickly wrote up a report.

For that he was busted back to F/O for six months, in spite of a prior history - crashed DC-8, and a DC-10 in which he tried to deploy reversers for a speed brake, like with a DC-8.

If you ever get a chance to watch a conventional horizontal stab during a stall, do it. That's what gives the plane the shakes. Warning, you may have the shakes afterward. Like one McDouglas DC-10 flight mech said after I showed him, "I wish now I'd never seen that!"

GB
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Old 24th Mar 2010, 23:50
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If you ever get a chance to watch a conventional horizontal stab during a stall, do it.
Piper Tomahawk's are good for this. Sobering.
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 00:27
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huck, you are right...the tomahawk, with its T tail and large rear window is indeed a sobering view during a stall, or even worse a SPIN (over the top...ouch)...

but for all the DC10 problems, it did manage to land in basically one piece. Other planes haven't been so lucky (can you say'bus)???????????

If the airspeed isn't in your scan once every second, you may be doing something wrnog!!! (pun intended)
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 02:11
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Hey Lurkio... #6

I'm squarely behind your FE mates with this, and also in a general sense!

Even though the news article mentions 3 crew, it's a MD-10, so they don't carry an FE, much to their discomfort, as with others!

Cheers...FD...
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 02:55
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Third Crew Member

Great to see that there are still those out there who remember the worth of having a F/E on multi-engine aircraft. Somehow I think the "bean counters" did the aviation industry a dis-service in convincing the operational side that there was a cost saving in dispensing with us, often, grey headed old beggars. Happy flying fella's.
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 05:57
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I thought max flap extension altitude is FL200 in most transport jets.

Just another case of improper stall recovery. I wonder why they never lowered the nose to break the stall. The report says pitch oscillated between negative 2 and plus 12. can you imagine having plus 12 up at the flight levels? yikes!

Got a feeling these guys were trying to minimize the legal repercussions before worrying about saving their asses. I wonder if this was also going through the mind of the Colgan captain that crashed in BUF.

At some point you have to ditch CYA and worry about saving your ass.
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 07:08
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just another case of improper stall recovery????????HA

what happened to stall avoidance....

the only time you should stall a plane is when you say, well in advance, I plan to stall this plane.

Anytime you are near min clean speed in cruise, or min speed in any configuration you should be on guard...lose one knot and you should be wide awake...five knots and you should be about to slam the throttles up and get the nose down...and when you actually get a stall warning...well you shouldn't get that far.
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 08:47
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And to settle the argument, though there doesn't seem to be much of one going, have you ever seen one of these new flight warning computers/FMGS etc. etc get out and fix a leaky toilet downroute? No, didn't think so.

FE 1. New tech 0.

And how do they always manage to find those really cheap breakfasts?
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 10:00
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I'm still waiting for my FMS to get its first round in.
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 11:37
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I thought max flap extension altitude is FL200 in most transport jets.
We have a winner.

And they were above the Mach limit as well.

The MD10-10, MD10-30 and MD11 are so different that the Limitations chapter of the AOM is about 50 pages. It is hard to stress all the fine points, so some stuff gets skipped. Besides, the FMS is there to save the day anyway, right?
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 18:04
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I'm really sorry about this, but lots of you seem to be banging on about flap extension above 20,000 feet.

Where exactly does it say that the crew extended flaps above 20,000 feet? Where exactly does it say that the crew extended the flaps at all?

For that matter, where exactly does it say that flaps cannot be extended above 20,000 feet on the DC-10?

What we are talking about here folks are slats - not flaps.

I flew the DC-10-10 and the DC-10-30 as a captain for a fair few years. Holding could always be a bit of a problem if you wanted to do it with a clean wing and also meet the holding speed limits.

I can remember holding inbound to JFK for a considerable time one day. I asked NYC if I could hold at 270 knots and the response was "no problem, just stay within 5 and 15 DME".

Just 1,000 feet below me was a Nigerian Airways DC-10 which was going round the hold with the slats out and a deck angle that made him look like a praying mantis. (For those of you who don't have slats, they can be worth 70 knots). Can you just imagine how much fuel he must have been burning?

The DC-10 is (was) a very efficient piece of kit but, like the MD-11, it needed a certain amount of understanding from the crew. It was built like a brick-built sh*t house but you had to know your aeroplane.

An example; the DC-10 had a sensor that isolated the outboard ailerons above 250 kts IAS and reduced the trim rate on the stabiliser to half rate.

It was later realised that the situation could arise where the aircraft could end up in the situation whereby the IAS could fall below 250 knots when the aircraft was climbed above FL390 or thereabouts and the stab suddenly went back to full speed because of the speed switch.

A modification (a pressure switch) that not only looked at IAS but also looked at altitude was introduced. This modification came in after several aircraft had been built (frame 46951 rings a bell).

I found myself in a pre-46951 airframe one day and the F/O wanted to go up to FL410 (where the IAS was obviously going to be below 250 knots). I let him do it having pointed out that the slightest amount of turbulence might make him want to change his mind.

We went up and came down again pretty quickly.

I don't suppose Kenny ever did that again.

Last edited by JW411; 25th Mar 2010 at 20:10.
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 19:44
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JW411

It is nice to see someone who knows their plane. You obviously do. Kudos.

I am amazed at how quickly people want to ''go high'' and not leave an out for turbulence...and I'm speaking of buffet margin here, not just passenger comfort.

MD10, MD11 whatever...I wish to only speak in general airmanship terms.

American use to fly MD11's from San Jose, California USA to Tokyo, Japan. MD11 had to fly clean at speeds well above regulation for ATC...below TCA/Group B airspace and below 10,000'.

And they got the approval to do so.

gentleman...don't let regs fly your plane, or ATC...if you need speed...DO IT!!!!!

And if you can't get what you want, you may have to use high lift devices. Just don't forget them when you speed up!

Way back when...I saw a movie called: "The Pilot" with Clif Robertson...about an alcholoic airline pilot. Early on in the film, he avoided a high altitude jet upset by knowing his plane and the signs of Clear Air Turbulence.

I wanted to be this pilot...except for the booze!!!!

go out of your way to KNOW things...and when you don't...ASK until you get a good answer. Answers like: we SHOULD be ok...that kind of equivication stinks.

be careful and be good...and don't drink.
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 20:30
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As much as I would like to put the blame on the DC-10 (excuse me MD-10). After reading the Aviation Hearld Report and the postings here the cause of this incident seems to be a simple case of bad airmanship.
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Old 25th Mar 2010, 22:01
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How can you sit there for over one minute with the stick shaker going off? Just push the yoke forwards, right?
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