Fedex DC10 stalls in holding pattern

[Huck]

Yes.

They come out with the shaker.

The RMP's open up too, "connecting" the hydraulic systems.

[VONKLUFFEN]

The "stupid" adjective used, was meant to describe my lack of judgment. Accept my apologies if sound that pilots where doing something stupid. I agree I have no clue about MD11 performance. It may have been the case as Burger Thing described. Again my apologies.
Erasing any other improper adjective (stunts for that matter) what do you think about the rest of my post?
I dont want to rush to conclusions just want to find answers and learn from history.

[FrontRunner]

@JW411

I'm really sorry about this, but lots of you seem to be banging on about flap extension above 20,000 feet.

Where exactly does it say that the crew extended flaps above 20,000 feet? Where exactly does it say that the crew extended the flaps at all?

Read the link in post number 2:

Therefore the crew requested a lower level and was cleared to FL320. The captain selected the bank angle limitation from auto to 15. During the descending turn the speed fell to about 220 KIAS, the first officer recommended to extend the slats, the maximum slat speed was indicated 270 KIAS, so that the captain ordered the slats to be extended. Upon selecting the slats down the indicated maximum slat speed dropped to below 220 KIAS, so that the captain ordered the slats to be immediately retracted. At that point the airplane began to buffet and the autoslat extension alert activated. The crew requested further descent and was cleared to FL290. The buffeting ceased when the airplane descended through FL300.

OK, fair enough, they are talking about slats, not flaps.

Yet for someone who claims to have been a captain on the DC10, why don't you enlighten us on the answer to one of your own questions:

For that matter, where exactly does it say that flaps cannot be extended above 20,000 feet on the DC-10?

As you can read in the related story, slats were extended well beyond the max ext speed of M0.51 at M0.59.

Perhaps that magical 20000' limit (applicable to all jets I've flown so far) has something to do with that...?

[glhcarl]

They come out with the shaker.

My lack of knowledge of the DM-10/DC-10 would fill volumes but since they didn't have an asymmetry detection system for the slats, an asymmetrical slat condition during auto extension could be get real intresting real quick.

[JW411]

"Are MD-10s/DC-10s equipped with auto slats".

Indeed they are; if you had bothered to read the whole thread then you would have picked up on that point.

The pillock who raised his highly qualified eyebrows and declared that the Fedex MD-11 take-off that he (supposedly witnessed) as highly dangerous
has no idea of which he talks.

I was an F/O with Laker when we suddenly got DC-10-30s (we already had DC-10-10s). I was one of the very first F/Os to get checked out on the new machine.

My last trip in the right seat on the DC-10 was with a new captain. We went from Gatwick to Heraklion in February in a Dash 30 with a full load of punters. Since it was the first flight of the "season" we were coming back empty.

It started to drizzle as we taxied out for take-off and Ivor said "It is raining so we must take-off at Ref Power". I tried to persuade him that this was not a good idea because:

a: we are empty
b: we are in a Dash 30
c: we should really be on max derate

His initial rate of climb was in excess of 8,500 fpm.

Since he was not trained to be in the Red Arrows, this took him somewhat by surprise!

[glhcarl]

Indeed they are; if you had bothered to read the whole thread then you would have picked up on that point

.
If I hadn't read the entire thread I would not have picked up the statment about "auto slats". What an Adam Henry.

[JW411]

Well, having spent 3 years based at JFK, I know who John Hancock is.

Who the hell is Adam Henry?

[FrontRunner]

Indeed they are; if you had bothered to read the whole thread then you would have picked up on that point.

Perhaps JW411, the self proclaimed DC10 expert and Red Arrow ace, should read the whole topic, including the title (we're talking about a stall in a holding pattern, not take off performance from a Greek Island!) and the link in post nr2?

Oh, and while you're at it JW, please answer the (very relevant) question which I asked earlier: is there an altitude limit to extending the slats/flaps on the DC10?

[Graybeard]

The early slick wing DC-9 (-10 series) is more susceptible to leading edge contamination affecting the stall. Roughness approximating fine sandpaper will add ten knots to the stall, so I was told.

For the few who have never seen a DC-10 up close and personal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=7_ITIlPvcm0&feature=related

EMERGENCY LANDING

It's called "405, the movie," and under 3 minutes.



To me, the DC-10 is a most beautiful airplane. 1979 was just a bad year for it. First there was the AA crash at Chicago (maintenance), then the Western Airlines crash at Mexico City (pilot/controller error), then the AeroMebbe described above, which could easily have ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic, and finally Air New Zealand TE-901 that hit Mt Erebus in Antarctica.


BTW, you can see the end of the horizontal from some of the windows near the back of the cabin of a 10, for a terrific view of its action in the stall.

A video of that would be a hit.


GB

[wileydog3]

Let me tell you, the split second I felt the yoke start to vibrate, I went to full power and flew that sucker out of the shaker envelope. Managed not to lose a foot of altitude either.

I congratulate you on your accomplishment however, at a recent seminar a prominent test pilot argued that the emphasis on NOT LOSING (or loosing to use internet verbs) any altitude was killing people. The emphasis should be on breaking the stall. Yes, we want to lose minimum altitude but augur in from 1500ft AGL like Colgan?

From my perspective that has to come from training emphasizing the WRONG thing.

[JW411]

Front Runner:

I am really sorry that you feel that I am a "self proclaimed DC10 exprt and Red Arrow ace".

The fact of the matter is that I flew the DC-10 for eight years which, I suspect, is eight years longer than you managed.

Since you are obviously still having great difficulty sorting out the difference between slats and flaps I quote the following:

Flap Placard Speeds Flap Position Limiting Speed
(VFE/MFE) 0 - 5 260 knots
MFE - .51M 5 - 15 250
15 - 25 210
25 - 35 185
35 - 50 170

Slats Extended Slat Position Limiting Speed
Auto-Extend 260 knots/0.75M
Take Off 260 knots/0.51M
Landing 214 knots/0.51M

There is absolutely no mention about lowering flaps above 20,000 feet.

In any event, if you think about it, why on earth would anyone who has ever been within 8,000 nautical miles of a DC-10 want to lower the flaps at such a ridiculous altitude?

The flaps don't go out until the slats are already out and that is pretty late in the game.

By the way, another nice thing about the DC-10 was that you could throw the gear out at 300 knots IAS which was quite handy if ATC left you high and fast.

Finally, could you please explain your Red Arrows comment?

[glhcarl]

Who the hell is Adam Henry?

An "Adam Henery' is not a person.

[protectthehornet]

wileydog3

I agree with you and your test pilot pal...much too much emphasis on holding altitude in stall recovery.

push forward and the stall is broken (ok, if you are inverted on purpose maybe not)breaking the stall leaves you with a flying airplane...and then you should make sure you don't hit the ground.

I think this all came about due to the windshear recovery stuff in the sim...two birds with one stone kinda thing...and I think the two are different enough to deserve specific training.

[protectthehornet]

ok, WHAT is an adam henry??????????

is it like a brodie?

or a corrigan?

or a moe???

[Tony Flynn]

Adam Henry

[Huck]

Gear Extension speed's 260. At least it is now.

Once extended you can go to 300.

[411A]

Adam Henry

Yup, fully understood, and....accepted.
There are many of these around, whom have failed to keep the blue side up.

Perhaps...several times.
OMG!

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

ref the 20,000' max flap extension limitation.

Firstly, I'm not a DC-10 pilot but my type also has the same limit.

When I asked, I was told that they don't really think you'll ever NEED to put out flaps etc at anything like this height, never mind ABOVE it.

Therefore testing a/c behaviour at various flap settings is only done up to FL 200.

They could do it higher up, indeed as high as your a/c is certificated to, but why?

All costs money.

On my type there's no need, but maybe on the MD, they oughter.

[JW411]

Huck:

Thank you for that; I can't imagine that there is anyone else on pprune who knows more about the modern-day DC-10 than you do.

I did my initial course with AA at DFW in 1979 and I still have the manual:

Landing Gear Operating:

Extension - 260 knots/0.70M
Retraction: 230 knots/0.70M

Landing Gear Extended:

300 knots/0.70M

NOTE: The limit speed following use of Alternate Gear Extension System is 260 kts/0.70M.

I really envy you for being still being able to fly one of the best flying machines ever invented.

I flew the DC-10 for five different operators and I loved every minute of it.

I wasn't totally wrong with my 300 knots but then it was 25 years ago!

[Huck]

I did my initial course with AA at DFW in 1979 and I still have the manual:

I flew that sim about 1999 for Gemini. It was suspended in a huge steel cage - the cylinders were on the top of the box. It held (I believe) 8 people. Looked like a Winnebago hanging there in the semi-darkness, over pools of leaking hydraulic fluid....

I am, indeed, very very lucky. My father was in the initial cadre at Northwest on the DC-10 as a young flight engineer, must have been about 1970. He gave me his study panels after he graduated, and I hung them on my wall - black and white drawings of the FE panel and the front instrument panel. I would sit in front of them and pretend. Now I fly them - but of course, the FE panel has been replaced by a window.....