Aeroflot A320 takes off on Oslo Taxiway
Guest
Posts: n/a
Must say, I agree a bit.
Just because you broke no SOP, you can still get killed.
People need to rely more on plain sensible airmanship/ common sense and less on all the rules written down for them.
No doubt there is no SOP that says "use a runway for taking off".
At this rate, there soon will be.
Just because you broke no SOP, you can still get killed.
People need to rely more on plain sensible airmanship/ common sense and less on all the rules written down for them.
No doubt there is no SOP that says "use a runway for taking off".
At this rate, there soon will be.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 716
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why, please, are runway markings in Norway non standard? As you are based in Norway, can you tell us the history of this? And perhaps suggest to the Norwegian authorities that it would be a good idea, in view of this occurence, to adopt the standard colour scheme?
Someone once told me that they also have yellow markings in Japan, however I'm not sure if it's correct.
And I suppose that the world still has a long way to go with regards to conformity. If we need local variations is a whole other discussion.
Definite no.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
leewan . . .
"...runways have dashed white centre lines compared to taxiways which have a solid yellow taxi line."
Yes, leewan . . . but have you ever been at an airport that's covered with fresh snow? Have you ever operated from, or seen an active contaminated runway where you can't see the runway markings, nor the associated taxiway markings; and where the signposts and edge lights are obscured? Have you ever seen, or operated from a runway or taxiway that had not yet been ploughed to its full width? Have you ever seen freshly ploughed snow banks covering the edge lights?
Yes, leewan . . . but have you ever been at an airport that's covered with fresh snow? Have you ever operated from, or seen an active contaminated runway where you can't see the runway markings, nor the associated taxiway markings; and where the signposts and edge lights are obscured? Have you ever seen, or operated from a runway or taxiway that had not yet been ploughed to its full width? Have you ever seen freshly ploughed snow banks covering the edge lights?
Glueball - you are so right! I could add to your list with 'have you ever landed on a runway in blowing snow when the whole landscape seems to be moving sideways'.
MATELO - I agree that it seems some pilots are not always behaving with the same care and the caution as before, but that is not the whole problem. Perhaps abbreviated training programmes are not as thorough as they were - I don't know. Perhaps too much reliance is being placed on electronic systems rather than using good old fashioned airmanship - again I don't know.
What I do know is that modern operations are a lot busier than they were in my day - more traffic, more time pressures, and greater complexity. And I also know that pilots need more help with situational awareness on the ground.
Did you know that in Europe the rate of high risk runway incursion incidents (category A and B as defined by Eurocontrol) is running at around one per week? And the rate is similar in the USA. That indicates to me there is a big problem. There are a number of runway incursion reduction intiatives both in Europe and the USA. However, my gut feeling is that a good moving map display of the airport surface when on the ground would be a great help, and is not difficult to do. And this is corroborated by the opinion of the Commercial Aviation Safety Team (CAST) in the USA who estimate that such a system wold reduce runay incursions by 80%.
I think the tavelling public deserves this type of protection - as do our colleagues.
MATELO - I agree that it seems some pilots are not always behaving with the same care and the caution as before, but that is not the whole problem. Perhaps abbreviated training programmes are not as thorough as they were - I don't know. Perhaps too much reliance is being placed on electronic systems rather than using good old fashioned airmanship - again I don't know.
What I do know is that modern operations are a lot busier than they were in my day - more traffic, more time pressures, and greater complexity. And I also know that pilots need more help with situational awareness on the ground.
Did you know that in Europe the rate of high risk runway incursion incidents (category A and B as defined by Eurocontrol) is running at around one per week? And the rate is similar in the USA. That indicates to me there is a big problem. There are a number of runway incursion reduction intiatives both in Europe and the USA. However, my gut feeling is that a good moving map display of the airport surface when on the ground would be a great help, and is not difficult to do. And this is corroborated by the opinion of the Commercial Aviation Safety Team (CAST) in the USA who estimate that such a system wold reduce runay incursions by 80%.
I think the tavelling public deserves this type of protection - as do our colleagues.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sin City
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, leewan . . . but have you ever been at an airport that's covered with fresh snow? Have you ever operated from, or seen an active contaminated runway where you can't see the runway markings, nor the associated taxiway markings; and where the signposts and edge lights are obscured? Have you ever seen, or operated from a runway or taxiway that had not yet been ploughed to its full width? Have you ever seen freshly ploughed snow banks covering the edge lights?
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
In Microsoft's Flight Simulator (I know, I'm a sorry case) it is possible to link the (simulated) GPS directly to Google Earth, which will give you an accurate position. I know it would never be cleared for airborne use, but when on the ground, why not?
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Herod
You really should go back to MSFS!
Aircraft tend not to have internet links, and certainly not on the flight deck. Furthermore, is Google Earth WGS 84 compliant? I suspect not.
However, what you say does resemble to a degree the intentions of the Electronic Flight Bag, which can take aircraft position and overlay it on airport charts. It is only a small step from there to warning pilots if they set above a certain amount of power when not on a runway.
You really should go back to MSFS!
Aircraft tend not to have internet links, and certainly not on the flight deck. Furthermore, is Google Earth WGS 84 compliant? I suspect not.
However, what you say does resemble to a degree the intentions of the Electronic Flight Bag, which can take aircraft position and overlay it on airport charts. It is only a small step from there to warning pilots if they set above a certain amount of power when not on a runway.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: @ some hotel far away from everything
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It`s easy to blame the two up front, an indeed they have a lot of the blame as they are the ones who decide to go or stay. But what is really interesting is why this happened. Early afternoon at OSL is not a very busy time of day. Weather was good. Daylight. I suspect the runways were black with good breaking action as well. Taxiways most likely in good condition with all signs easily readable. Having flown out of OSL quite a bit, I have found that when this kind of situation occurs (almost no traffic, good wx etc) you are given the "cleared for takeoff" amazingly early at times. Not trying to point blame here, but such a contributing factor could be a cause. Of course not the only one, but maybe one that can get the snowball rolling
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Systems are available.
Left Seat: Collins Improves Ground Safety | FLYING Magazine
Collins' Pro Line Fusion improves ground safety
By J. Mac McClellan, FLYING Magazine
This is what the ground safety display looks like in Pro Line Fusion when the cockpit crew has entered Runway 12 as the takeoff runway at Albuquerque.
Collins' New Pro Line Fusion avionics system that will debut in the Bombardier Global Express has all the features you would expect in a top-of-the-line flat-glass avionics system. The displays are huge; the synthetic vision view of the terrain ahead of the airplane is sharp and detailed; and there are innovative formats to display weather and navigation data.
From what I have seen, however, Fusion's greatest advance is improving safety on the ground. Taxiway and runway confusion by jet pilots is one of the most significant remaining safety concerns, and Fusion gives pilots the information they need to avoid wrong-runway takeoff attempts or runway incursions.
There are already systems that track an airplane's position on the airport and issue an alert any time the airplane is about to enter or cross a runway. That can be a big help in avoiding a runway incursion because the crew is notified as it approaches a runway in time to double-check that it is cleared to cross or enter. The drawback of that type of system is the nuisance of being alerted to every runway intersection even when you know exactly where you are and what your taxi clearance is.
Instead, Collins chose to take a graphical approach backed up by aural alerts to enhance ground operation safety. And the system looks very good.
The locations of all runways at any significant airport are very precisely surveyed and are stored in the electronic database that provides the necessary information for ground proximity warning and to create the synthetic vision system (SVS) display. In other words, the necessary data for the system is already on board nearly all jets. Taxiways, ramps and other airport surface locations are not always stored with the same precision, so it is really the runways and their locations that matter to the safety warning system.
When you enter the assigned takeoff runway in the Fusion flight management system, that runway is boldly outlined in blue on the airport diagram display. Chevrons point in the takeoff direction so that it is clear which is Runway 12 instead of Runway 30, even though they are actually the same strip of pavement. The assigned runway has large identification numbers at the ends with a bubble surrounding the number pointing in the proper direction. All other runway ends in view on the page are identified in the same way.
Your position on the airport is symbolized as an airplane outline, and Fusion shows the progress of your airplane as you move over the ramps and taxiways. All taxiways are clearly labeled so it's easy to see that you are on the assigned route. It's also easy to see at a glance your relationship to all runways in addition to the intended runway, so if you look at the display at all, there should be no runway incursion.
The Fusion ground safety system really pays off at airports such as Albuquerque, where several runways intersect and departure points for different runways can be quite close together. The graphic display shows you which taxiway to follow to get to your assigned runway, which is brightly highlighted in blue.
Because Fusion is fully integrated into all airplane systems, it knows when you advance the power beyond what's necessary for taxi. If you are not on the assigned runway when you bring the power up, you get an aural warning telling you in plain language that you are on a taxiway or the wrong runway, along with a general takeoff warning.
This system would almost certainly have prevented the regional airliner accident in Kentucky in which the crew lined up on the wrong, and too short, runway. And there have been other similar incidents and accidents around the world, usually during low-visibility operations, that Fusion would have helped pilots avoid.
The Fusion ground safety display has the capacity to expand as ADS-B comes on line and all airplanes automatically broadcast their identification and position. When that happens, the position of those airplanes will be displayed on the airport surface map to reduce the chances of a collision on a taxiway or runway no matter how low the visibility.
Left Seat: Collins Improves Ground Safety | FLYING Magazine
Collins' Pro Line Fusion improves ground safety
By J. Mac McClellan, FLYING Magazine
This is what the ground safety display looks like in Pro Line Fusion when the cockpit crew has entered Runway 12 as the takeoff runway at Albuquerque.
Collins' New Pro Line Fusion avionics system that will debut in the Bombardier Global Express has all the features you would expect in a top-of-the-line flat-glass avionics system. The displays are huge; the synthetic vision view of the terrain ahead of the airplane is sharp and detailed; and there are innovative formats to display weather and navigation data.
From what I have seen, however, Fusion's greatest advance is improving safety on the ground. Taxiway and runway confusion by jet pilots is one of the most significant remaining safety concerns, and Fusion gives pilots the information they need to avoid wrong-runway takeoff attempts or runway incursions.
There are already systems that track an airplane's position on the airport and issue an alert any time the airplane is about to enter or cross a runway. That can be a big help in avoiding a runway incursion because the crew is notified as it approaches a runway in time to double-check that it is cleared to cross or enter. The drawback of that type of system is the nuisance of being alerted to every runway intersection even when you know exactly where you are and what your taxi clearance is.
Instead, Collins chose to take a graphical approach backed up by aural alerts to enhance ground operation safety. And the system looks very good.
The locations of all runways at any significant airport are very precisely surveyed and are stored in the electronic database that provides the necessary information for ground proximity warning and to create the synthetic vision system (SVS) display. In other words, the necessary data for the system is already on board nearly all jets. Taxiways, ramps and other airport surface locations are not always stored with the same precision, so it is really the runways and their locations that matter to the safety warning system.
When you enter the assigned takeoff runway in the Fusion flight management system, that runway is boldly outlined in blue on the airport diagram display. Chevrons point in the takeoff direction so that it is clear which is Runway 12 instead of Runway 30, even though they are actually the same strip of pavement. The assigned runway has large identification numbers at the ends with a bubble surrounding the number pointing in the proper direction. All other runway ends in view on the page are identified in the same way.
Your position on the airport is symbolized as an airplane outline, and Fusion shows the progress of your airplane as you move over the ramps and taxiways. All taxiways are clearly labeled so it's easy to see that you are on the assigned route. It's also easy to see at a glance your relationship to all runways in addition to the intended runway, so if you look at the display at all, there should be no runway incursion.
The Fusion ground safety system really pays off at airports such as Albuquerque, where several runways intersect and departure points for different runways can be quite close together. The graphic display shows you which taxiway to follow to get to your assigned runway, which is brightly highlighted in blue.
Because Fusion is fully integrated into all airplane systems, it knows when you advance the power beyond what's necessary for taxi. If you are not on the assigned runway when you bring the power up, you get an aural warning telling you in plain language that you are on a taxiway or the wrong runway, along with a general takeoff warning.
This system would almost certainly have prevented the regional airliner accident in Kentucky in which the crew lined up on the wrong, and too short, runway. And there have been other similar incidents and accidents around the world, usually during low-visibility operations, that Fusion would have helped pilots avoid.
The Fusion ground safety display has the capacity to expand as ADS-B comes on line and all airplanes automatically broadcast their identification and position. When that happens, the position of those airplanes will be displayed on the airport surface map to reduce the chances of a collision on a taxiway or runway no matter how low the visibility.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sin City
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you are given the "cleared for takeoff" amazingly early at times. Not trying to point blame here, but such a contributing factor could be a cause. Of course not the only one, but maybe one that can get the snowball rolling
Brian Abraham - Good post, my point exactly. UPS at Louisville are using ACSS's SafeRoute system on their B757s and B767s. And the FAA have funded fitment of this same equipment on some US Airways A330s at Philadelphia. The displays are similar and they will be testing various types of alerts.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South of N90º00'.0
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The newer a/cs like the B738s, B773ERs and A380s have an electronic moving map called the Electronic Flight Bag or as Airbus calls it, Airport Navigation. A great deterrence to prevent incidents like this.
Maybe all this electronic stuff could be perceived as more effective, if people would just look out the window from time to time.
Is Google Earth WGS84 compliant - YES indeed!
Furthermore, is Google Earth WGS 84 compliant? I suspect not. - TopBunk
in GE, and turn on lat-lon lines by going to the menu "View->Grid", you will see the Meridian line is about 100 meters east of the Greenwich observatory (viewable quite clearly in the satellite photo). This is not a mistake on Google's part. The developers of Google Earth (originally known as Keyhole) chose to support the same coordinate system as that used by GPS technology known as WGS-84 World Geodetic System."Not my words - I just asked Google.
If you're at all confused - definitely YES, Google Earth is based on exactly the same WGS84 coordinate system as GPS, and that was on purpose.
- GY
Last edited by GarageYears; 4th Mar 2010 at 02:50. Reason: Ach! Grammar...
PappyJ - Those old dinosaur aircraft were a pleasure to fly and were more difficult. BUT they were also landed and taken off on the wrong runways from time to time, possibly at a rate that was as often or more often than now. There was less traffic then and so less risk of collision.
Remember this is not only a debate about old pilots and new pilots but about making a public transport system even safer.
Remember this is not only a debate about old pilots and new pilots but about making a public transport system even safer.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Age: 77
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
memory failing me?
But way back in the dim and distant past - did a 707 one of my fave planes apart from the 727 not land at the wrong airport and obviously the wrong runway (Heathrow being so easy to confuse!!!) I also seem to remember a Death Cruiser Mark 10 landing in the wrong Country after a flight from the good old USofA!!!! Also one of my fiends a Senior Cpatain with Delta after flying years of regular transatlantic trips and a Golf Fanatic to boot had no idea where Scotland was!!!!
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sin City
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't recall ever hearing about an old DC8, 747-200, DC3, DC4, 727, 707 or any of those dinosaur airplanes (that, incidentally, required a lot more skill to fly than these modern Airbus or 777) taking off from anything other than the correct runway.
And as Bergerie1 has pointed out, these incidents could have very well have occurred as often as now. Just that due to the lack of technology( internet), it wasn't publicized like now, where the world would know if an a/c's screw or panel falls off somewhere in Timbuktu.
Like it or not, technology is here to stay. It's main function is to complement and aid the pilots in flying the a/c. In the case of EFB, it's still the pilot's responsibilty to process this information and validate it thru visual cues or thru the ATC to get a confirmation of where he is.
Looking into the future, there is a possibility that Boeing and Airbus taking into account this taxiway confusions, could built in a function where once pushback is complete, the pilots just type in the taxi instructions into the FMC, push autopilot and LNAV, and the a/c taxis itself to the active runway. Seems far-fetched ? Airbus has a precursor in the form of BTV in the A380.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't recall ever hearing about an old DC8, 747-200, DC3, DC4, 727, 707 or any of those dinosaur airplanes