SIA Low Fuel at LHR

[halo]

This is all well and good, but its not unknown for us to lose both runways at Heathrow. What happens then?? Although you may state the non-landing runway as the alternate, this is not always available for use. There is no point us finding this out at anywhere less than 6 DME because the departure controller will then be committed with his current line-up and the second aircraft will undoubtably be across the CAT 1 holding point so that he can squeeze in tight behind the preceding aircraft.. .. .I am purely trying to find out the situation on behalf of all the controllers so that we know what to expect.. .. .NigelOnDraft... Thanx for your info ():-) I think I met you a while back!! Hope everything is going well

[exeng]

Hi Halo,. .. .Our Nigel on best bitter made his point well. I'd just like to say that there would be no point in diverting when you will end up in exactly the same fuel scenario as you would when 'committing' and landing at LHR. I have experienced this on two occasions many years ago as an ENG on the Classic. Big question mark over my head whilst making an approach into EMA on minimum fuel.. .. .Your point, &lt;&lt;There is no point us finding this out at anywhere less than 6 DME because the departure controller will then be committed with his current line-up&gt;&gt;.. .. .My sincere hope was that the departure controller will abandon his line up if I declare a MAYDAY because I now KNOW I will land with less than 'reserve fuel'. (30 mins. at 1500 ft.) An unlikely scenario at 6 DME I grant you, but nevertheless possible.. .. .Our instructions are a 'PAN' if you think it is possible that you may land with less than reserves, and a MAYDAY if 'KNOW' you will land with less than reserve fuel.. .. .It's good to talk about these things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .We are all counting on you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .Regards. .Exeng

[halo]

Thanx for your speedy reply exeng. I totally understand your points. What I tried to get across (admittedly not very well) is that if we suddenly lose the runway that you are making an approach to, and you are extremely tight on fuel thus necessitating a mayday call then even despite the nature of your situation it may not be possible to land on the other runway. The reasons for it are as follows.... .. .- If you are inside approx 6 DME the departure controller may NOT be able to make the runway available for use. With one on and one across the CAT 1 bar it will take at least 2 minutes to get the runway clear. This can be achieved by one of two ways. Either he clears the first one for take-off and then clears the next one as soon as the preceding aircrafts wheels are off the runway, or he clears the first one for take-off and taxis the second one down the runway to vacate. Both of these take at minimum of two minutes to do and at approximately 3 miles a minute on the inbound this will make for a very late landing clearance at best.. .Both of these situations are also conditional on other things as well.... If the preceding aircraft to the one on the runway is on the same route then the controller will either have to wait for a 2 minute route separation (at which point he can cancel the line up of the following aircraft) or he can launch it and attain separation using radar vectors. If however there is a wake vortex issue then this is not an option. The wake vortex issue is also a problem with European operators following 757s and they often ask for an extra minute on the runway (most of them wait until in position before informing us). We are obliged to give it to them. All we can do is explain your situation and hope that they are understanding. . .. .All these situations hinge as well on the second aircraft for departure not being across the CAT 1 bar. If they are then the runway is occupied. Obtaining a speedy vacation is very difficult to do particularly on 27R where the first permissible turn-off is at Block 16.. .. .So, although you may declare a mayday due fuel shortage, and we will pull out all the stops for you, it still may not be possible to make a runway available for use.. .. .The best solution I can think of is to declare a pan as early as possible and give us sufficient time to plan for any eventuality. If you are interested in a visit then please drop me an e-mail. We would be more than happy to show you our operation ():-)

[exeng]

Halo,. .. .Excellent stuff! It is really great to get an insight into your side of the equation.. .. .As you say, &lt;&lt;The best solution I can think of is to declare a pan as early as possible and give us sufficient time to plan for any eventuality.&gt;&gt;. .. .I've never had to do it yet (within 2 mins once and keeping all my fingers and toes 'X'ed) but of course I would, and you would probably recieve the call from one of the holds.. .. .Just a suggestion here, but if an aircraft is on a 'PAN' then perhaps departures should be suspended til the 'offending' aircraft lands. I appreciate that it makes a total mess of the departure rate, but isn't that better than making a total mess of Hounslow? On second thoughts don't answer that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Let's demolish Cranford etc and build 27RR; while we are at it Feltham is history for 27LL!!. .. .Regards. .Exeng

[halo]

*laughs*. How I wish that could be true!!. .. .I totally agree with you about suspending departures but unfortunately airline management don't. There is constant pressure put on us by the airlines through the crew to get aircraft away as quickly as possible. The unfortunate upshot of it at Heathrow is that aircraft that aren't getting off the stands for departure means that aircraft inbound aren't getting onto stands (leaving us with the problem of where to put them in the meantime). This in turn leads to them not getting away on time again and so the whole process recycles throughout the entire day. For example, V22 with a hold first thing in the morning will nearly always be V22 with a hold at the end of the day.. .. .One possible solution though is to declare your fuel situation in the hold, and request the departure runway for landing. That way then, the departure controller can arrange his sequence so that you get a nice early landing clearance and all the necessary fire crew arrangements can be made well in advance at our end. As well as that, the airlines aren't suffering too much delay at the hold and will be less likely to moan about how much its costing them in wasted fuel.. .. .It's great to hear about these things from the point of view of the flight crew. Unfortunately, since 11th September there has been so little face to face interraction between the crews and the controllers that it has become very difficult to canvass opinions about these important subjects

[Oliver James]

Morning.. .. .Halo: Are we entitled to ask you for the departure runway in 'fuel tight' circumstances? . .. .Just last week we had a PAN on 27L at the same time as that darned crane being up on 27R. My suggestion to hold arrivals to protect the runway was ignored because of the impact on the rest of the traffic. This leads me back to the point I have made on these forums several times before: Heathrow's runways are oversubscribed. If safety really is paramount then we need to be given runway redundancy. I have been in the position of having to tell returning emergency traffic which couldn't manoeuvre properly that the only available runway had just been blocked. It felt totally unprofessional. . .. .Allowing the traffic schedules to saturate the runways so we can avoid having to make uncomfortable decisions about building a new one is, I believe, negligent. Surely we are in the business of prevention rather than cure?. .. .I am not just talking about protecting emergencies either. Even under normal circumstances, a reduction in landing capacity through wx or other puts Approach under a lot of pressure to pack traffic in tight. Pressure in our business is dangerous.. .. .Good point about crew controller interaction, we need to get that started again as soon as possible, if possible!. .. .Hurry up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> !

[halo]

Hi 120.4. .. .I can't think of any reason at all why you can't ask for the departure runway for somebody that has declared a pan due to fuel emergency. If I'm sat in the departure seat then I will be more than happy to take the traffic, but I suspect the decision will be down to agreement between the deps controller and the supervisor. And you are completely right, things like the crane don't help at all!. .. .Having sat in arrivals on days when the weather is horrific, I am constantly amazed at how well you guys do across the road to keep the whole thing running!!

[Lunar Landing]

So where is the heathrow director located? Halo said "across the road". Is this literally across the road or nearby in London?. .. .Smooth skies

[caulfield]

Some very good points being made here.. .Having flown in the Far East,I can only say that this loss of face thing very often induces pilots(expats as well)to take unnecessary risks.Why should the pilot carry the can when he is only obeying the law laid down by the regulating authority?Its of course a very fine line and an experienced Captain knows where to draw it but if in doubt,always divert.Better to face the interview on the 4th floor and keep a clean licence,than gamble with your whole career.. .I would also add that the 757 should be considered a ´heavy´,and that it shouldnt be incumbent upon the pilots to ask for the extra minute.It should be taken for granted.I wonder if this will happen some time soon in London.

[Oliver James]

Heathrow Director (as opposed to "The Heathrow Director", who is a really lovely chap!) lives across the M4 at the "old" centre. This centre had 2 rooms, Area control and Terminal control. AC has gone to NERC, TC is due to go in about 4 years.. .. .Thanks for the compliment. I 'm sure it must seem sometimes as if we are just packin' 'em in any old how. We are under a lot of pressure to keep that rate up (I believe you can now see "the machine"?) and when striving for excellence it is easy to over do things. I am grateful for the patience which comes the other way!. .. .Caulfield: I believe that the B757 is being looked at. It is already in a special catagory but the number of cmplaints is significant. It is also slow on short final which makes it difficult to satisfy the intention of the book.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .Point 4

[PaperTiger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">clears the first one for take-off and taxis the second one down the runway to vacate. Both of these take at minimum of two minutes to do</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Two minutes to roll one from position and taxi the second to the first exit ? Is that the 'book' figure - seems to me it really doesn't take anything like that providing all expedite.

[halo]

Lets say for example that I clear you for take-off and you are sat on the threshold. By the time you spool up, roll then rotate and all wheels have left the runway, approximately 45 seconds will have passed. This is a minimum time and some airlines take considerably longer. If you don't believe me then time it and see.. .. .Let say for example that you are across the CAT 1 holding point but not quite in position on the threshold i.e. you are infringing the runway but still need to taxi round the corner and straighten up. If it is suddenly decided that we need you to vacate then we have to look at the options as to where we want you off. So, for the 27L departure configuration we have either 86 to the south, 86 to the north, 85 to the south and 85 to the north............ Following so far *winks*...... .Option 1, 27L vacate 86 to the south, firstly you need to power up to get moving then you need to taxi the required distance, then turn, then clear the runway. I would suggest at least 45 seconds even if expediting and you wouldn't want to expedite too quickly because ending up on the grass is embarassing. Block 86 to the south is fraught with problems though because we can't get you back to the hold by turning you left from 118 into 95 (see Air Pilot for reasons) and if there is something coming the other way from Terminal 4 then that route is blocked and we have a stand-off and the possibility of the runway not being clear.. .. .Option 2, 27L vacate 86 to the North. Same procedure as before except you will be turning directly into the teeth of other outbound traffic coming through 74. This is only a problem if the GMC controller is busy and hasn't handed the traffic to the departures controller. .Option 3, 27L vacate 85 to either the North or South. No major confliction problems BUT it is a greater distance to taxi thus increasing the time factor.. .. .okay, 27R for departure.... The first two available turn-offs are at 17 or 16 both of which are very tight reverse turns all of which take time.. .. .So, even if we have a mayday situation and need you off quickly, all these factors have to be taken into account by the controller (who at the time will also have the Mayday to worry about). These all take considerable time to achieve. I'm sure if there are any other Heathrow controllers reading this then they will concur with my comments.

[PaperTiger]

OK, I confess I'm not familiar with EGLL ops, and looking at a diagram I can see it's not ideal for expeditious vacating. Everything much too close together. Two minutes is an awfully long time though - run the movements through your head while looking at your watch. . .. .I've been off the runway in less than 20 seconds following a cancelled line-up, admittedly with a handy exit (KLAX). Cultural thing possibly as it seems European airports do things somewhat more cautiously than the US/Canada. But then you haven't had the same number of runway 'shunts', so maybe your way is better. . .. .I also think you can safely ask anyone to expedite if the need arises without worrying about us putting it on the grass.

[Feather #3]

Fascinating discussion. It's extremely valuable to hear from other operators about their policies and also from ATCO's who have to sort out the jigsaw.. .. .What upsets me about these low fuel landings [ie. less than 30min @ 1,500ft] is that [certainly in the case of long haul] you can see them coming hours away! We had a situation the other night where with minimum fuel ex-SIN [including an allowance for holding in "no holding" conditions], we lost enough enroute that the FZFG which rolled in to LHR meant we were doing some serious sums hours before arrival.. .. .In our case, dialogue with our company saw us diverting to FRA for fuel, but further fine tuning meant that [with our policy] we had EMA as an alternate.. .. .The point being [since it would appear that it's long haul operators having these low fuel problems, isn't it?] that you know well in advance how much gas you'll have on arrival at LHR or in the LON TMA, and the AIC says that you need 20min holding at ALL times [maybe not before 0600], so unless some other hassle intervenes, you should always be able to achieve the minimum fuel at touchdown!. .. .OTOH, does emergency use of the LHR departure runway for landing occur often enough that we shouldn't roll over the CatI holding point even though cleared to lineup in sequence, just "in case"?. .. .G'day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[exeng]

Feather #3,. .. .&lt;&lt;since it would appear that it's long haul operators having these low fuel problems, isn't it?&gt;&gt;. .. .Not only I'm afraid. Minimum fuel is carried by many shorthaul airlines although obviously the Captain will uplift more if, in his opinion, the situation requires it.. .. .The problem with EGLL is that one needs an absolutely fully serviceable crystal ball to evaluate just what the holding delays will be. I'm only surprised if I am not asked to take up the hold.. .. .Regards. .Exeng

[Oliver James]

Feather#3. .These days I'm approach not tower but from my previous tower experience I would suggest that if you didn't cross the Cat1 until we were certain we didn't need the runway for anything else we would never achieve the 1 minute or visual splits which make a 45 per hour departure rate possible. In the case of 09R deps. there are multiple line up possibilities and one could have as as many as 3 aircraft on the runway at the same time. That is how the rates are achieved.. .. .I guess there is just no substitute for spare concrete... and we haven't got any! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Few Cloudy]

Wasn't there an AIC about having to have at least 30 mins additional fuel if flying to any airport in the London zone a while back? That includes STN and also LTN, where holding is not so common.. .. .Trouble with AICs is that foreign carriers usually don't get them.. .. .Another trouble is that an additional ton of fuel, transported 12 hours on a long range flight, is about 1/2 ton by the time you get there.

[Siddique]

Surely the crux of the arguament is 'its NOT illegal to use reserve fuel' its wahat it's there for! Just should nt 'plan' on using it?

[411A]

In spite of any good intensions on the part of longhaul crews, LHR does create a problem sometimes. A number of years ago at top of drop (L15, 11 hour flight) we had enough fuel for 50 minutes of holding (ATIS 4km) and after 45 minutes (ATIS still 4km) we were advised that LHR was going to LVP, RVR now 800 metres, and it would be another 20 minutes minimum before an approach could be expected. As we were number one at LAM holding, requested immediate diversion to LGW, and landed with three tons remaining. But for aircraft to intensionally land at destination with very low fuel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> seems to me to be....not very bright. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[halo]

I have timed it thousands of times. In fact I time it somewhere upwards of 40 times an hour. With all the will in the world, I know for a fact that there isn't a single crew who could vacate the runway at Heathrow from the threshold in 20 seconds. And, I've never seen anybody cross the runway in less than a minute either (and the KLM Fk50 boys have a damn good go). You are more than welcome to come and time it, but if you ask any regular heathrow crew they will tell U that ATC have their timings down pretty precisely