jmc pilots role over and accept pay deal?
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zzz - I fail to see how we can be "entering a period of high demand for pilots" when there are pilots being fired and laid off left, right and centre!
The reality is that the pilot hiring market is hitting a brick wall at the moment - airlines just aren't hiring. Those that are are being much more creative about the way in which they are doing it, especially in regard to contract duration/renewal; training and bonding issues; utilisation and deployment, etc.
As for those plonkers like Notso Fantastic that think that the world revolves around themselves - and their bank balances - I've got news for you. It doesn't. An airline is a team of people, all of whom are equally important to the overall operation. Take away one of those groups, and everyone else is affected; yet it's the pilots that are demanding the highest pay increases!
Personally, I'd say that there are far more deserving groups, such as the ground engineers (who have the ultimate safety responsibility for the aircraft); the cabin crew (who have the ultimate safety responsibility for the passengers); and let's not forget the air traffic controllers without whom you'd all be in very serious trouble!
That's not forgetting the back room people - reservations and marketing staff, without whom you'd have no pax to fly; commercial/accounts staff without whom you wouldn't get paid; operations without whom you'd never be assigned an aircraft; and senior management without which you wouldn't have an airline to fly for.
When it comes to pay increase issues, I'd say that the fairest way for everyone is to link pay to company results. Profits go up 50% - pay goes up 50%. Conversely, if profits fall 50%, then you should also be prepared to accept a 50% pay cut. If things worked that way, it would focus everyones' minds superbly ... there are companies (such as WN) that have never made a loss. If they can do it, there's no reason why the rest of us can't.
The reality is that the pilot hiring market is hitting a brick wall at the moment - airlines just aren't hiring. Those that are are being much more creative about the way in which they are doing it, especially in regard to contract duration/renewal; training and bonding issues; utilisation and deployment, etc.
As for those plonkers like Notso Fantastic that think that the world revolves around themselves - and their bank balances - I've got news for you. It doesn't. An airline is a team of people, all of whom are equally important to the overall operation. Take away one of those groups, and everyone else is affected; yet it's the pilots that are demanding the highest pay increases!
Personally, I'd say that there are far more deserving groups, such as the ground engineers (who have the ultimate safety responsibility for the aircraft); the cabin crew (who have the ultimate safety responsibility for the passengers); and let's not forget the air traffic controllers without whom you'd all be in very serious trouble!
That's not forgetting the back room people - reservations and marketing staff, without whom you'd have no pax to fly; commercial/accounts staff without whom you wouldn't get paid; operations without whom you'd never be assigned an aircraft; and senior management without which you wouldn't have an airline to fly for.
When it comes to pay increase issues, I'd say that the fairest way for everyone is to link pay to company results. Profits go up 50% - pay goes up 50%. Conversely, if profits fall 50%, then you should also be prepared to accept a 50% pay cut. If things worked that way, it would focus everyones' minds superbly ... there are companies (such as WN) that have never made a loss. If they can do it, there's no reason why the rest of us can't.
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Guvnor,
Your assertion that linking pay to company performance is the "best" way to do things is somewhat flawed - perhaps from management's perspective...
This is a common management trick. What exactly is "profit"? Profit, in actuality, is an "opinion" because it can be MANIPULATED in so many ways. The company can decide to conduct a restructuring on a whim and add a significant charge to its income statement - and thereby reduce taxable income/profit. Management can decide to accelerate depreciation on a large asset - and that excess depreciation charge cuts into profits. These business decisions could be legitimate and savvy in nature, but the pilots would be adversely affected - despite any benefits accrued by the company in general. Say bye bye to any pay increases tied to profits in that case.
I believe Continental Airlines had it right when it started to link pay to certain operational performance metrics like "on-time departures" and "customer-complaint counts". That way, everyone is aligned in their goals and striving to reach operational excellence. Employees are then focusing on a set number of operational goals that directly impact customer service and customer opinion.
Pay tied to profit alone is a recipe for future upset feelings.
Cheers
Your assertion that linking pay to company performance is the "best" way to do things is somewhat flawed - perhaps from management's perspective...
This is a common management trick. What exactly is "profit"? Profit, in actuality, is an "opinion" because it can be MANIPULATED in so many ways. The company can decide to conduct a restructuring on a whim and add a significant charge to its income statement - and thereby reduce taxable income/profit. Management can decide to accelerate depreciation on a large asset - and that excess depreciation charge cuts into profits. These business decisions could be legitimate and savvy in nature, but the pilots would be adversely affected - despite any benefits accrued by the company in general. Say bye bye to any pay increases tied to profits in that case.
I believe Continental Airlines had it right when it started to link pay to certain operational performance metrics like "on-time departures" and "customer-complaint counts". That way, everyone is aligned in their goals and striving to reach operational excellence. Employees are then focusing on a set number of operational goals that directly impact customer service and customer opinion.
Pay tied to profit alone is a recipe for future upset feelings.
Cheers
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If I read the thread rightly, JMC is offering the flight crew a 5% increase (backdated, of course), which is above the rate of inflation.
I don't understand why you are all unhappy with it, bearing in mind that all ground staff and cabin crew got was a 3.5% increase, on basic pay and flight duty pay, take it or leave it!!
Is it that you think you should have had more than the rest of us? If so, why?
I was of the understanding that JMC flight crew are paid more or less the same as most other charter airline flight crew. (please correct me if I have been given duff info!!! which I am sure you will hehehe!)
Seriously though, what is it you were expecting? To discuss company budgets etc, though maybe this should be continued in the jmc forum?
I don't understand why you are all unhappy with it, bearing in mind that all ground staff and cabin crew got was a 3.5% increase, on basic pay and flight duty pay, take it or leave it!!
Is it that you think you should have had more than the rest of us? If so, why?
I was of the understanding that JMC flight crew are paid more or less the same as most other charter airline flight crew. (please correct me if I have been given duff info!!! which I am sure you will hehehe!)
Seriously though, what is it you were expecting? To discuss company budgets etc, though maybe this should be continued in the jmc forum?
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You wrote "I don't understand why you are all unhappy with it, bearing in mind that all ground staff and cabin crew got was a 3.5% increase, on basic pay and flight duty pay, take it or leave it!!"
Sorry we have only been given 3.5% as well (Don't know where 5% came from!). Its the same deal everyone else was given. We also recieved a contractional duty agreement starting in 2002. If you ask me, I don't think thats worth a damn as it can still be broken with authorization from the Director flt ops.
Sorry we have only been given 3.5% as well (Don't know where 5% came from!). Its the same deal everyone else was given. We also recieved a contractional duty agreement starting in 2002. If you ask me, I don't think thats worth a damn as it can still be broken with authorization from the Director flt ops.
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Lavdumper - obviously, any profit related pay scheme would have to be transparent. The easiest way to do it is based on operating profits - that's the figure before administration charges, depreciation, interest and extraordinary charges and earnings are taken into account.
It's a result that's a lot harder to manipulate, as well - although the various overhead charges would need to be apportioned (easiest way in an airline is to take the aircraft type and divide costs by utilisation).
No one seems to have answered the question why flight deck think they deserve higher pay increases than anyone else?
It's a result that's a lot harder to manipulate, as well - although the various overhead charges would need to be apportioned (easiest way in an airline is to take the aircraft type and divide costs by utilisation).
No one seems to have answered the question why flight deck think they deserve higher pay increases than anyone else?
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Guv,
There is no way that you could do that as many of the expenses that an airline incurs are negotiated on a confidential basis. Opening the books in a manner that would allow your scheme, would remove many of the competitive edges that a good managment team might develope.
Sounds good though, of course so does all holding hands and singing Koombaya. So what happens when management takes the profits that I earned for the company a uses it to buy another decrepit company that was so badly run it couldn't make money if they were hauling cocaine?
Cheers
Wino
PS. yep I still stay in contact with some of my charter buds. Try and play golf in the UK atleast once or twice a month. Contact Greg or Tony for a tee time.
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Wino ]
There is no way that you could do that as many of the expenses that an airline incurs are negotiated on a confidential basis. Opening the books in a manner that would allow your scheme, would remove many of the competitive edges that a good managment team might develope.
Sounds good though, of course so does all holding hands and singing Koombaya. So what happens when management takes the profits that I earned for the company a uses it to buy another decrepit company that was so badly run it couldn't make money if they were hauling cocaine?
Cheers
Wino
PS. yep I still stay in contact with some of my charter buds. Try and play golf in the UK atleast once or twice a month. Contact Greg or Tony for a tee time.
[ 13 July 2001: Message edited by: Wino ]
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Guv
perhaps we could use your pay scales in comparison to see if we being just plain greedy, as you have infinite knowledge and wisdom in the sector, where can i find them ?
perhaps we could use your pay scales in comparison to see if we being just plain greedy, as you have infinite knowledge and wisdom in the sector, where can i find them ?
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There was a time up to very recently Guv, where I actually thought you knew a little about this game, where I believed you spoke pretty well the truth, or at least common sense.
The reason we pilots are worth more than anyone else in the airline business, NOW, in terms of pay rises is simple, we have been generically restricted over the last five for sure, and probably more like ten years. Cathay currently, Lufty last week, Iberia this week, and BA later this year is purely an example of management sowing the wind etc.
If there is any example we might be (unfairly) said to be copying, it is that of the the Kings, the Marshalls. the Aylings, the Eddingtons of this world. Lets see a pay rise /time graph for all of them, overlaid with productivity results. Now let's compare that with an AVERAGE pilots graph for the same, then all sit back stupefied.
I'm with BRAL/BRYMON, not lucky enough to be BA. However, I recognise that BA mainline set the standard for the whole UK industry. Currnetly, my mega profitable little company is being shafted by our management, and it all cost costs costs given as the reason. And its bollocks.
So please, all of us, lets not lose sight of the objective. If BA , Cathay etc achieve a thumping good rise, then it will trickle down to everyone else in good time. What we must avoid is the backbiting encouraged by the likes of the Guvnor, or our Antipodean friends. Both for different reasons, neither for reasons that I, at any rate, can understand.
The reason we pilots are worth more than anyone else in the airline business, NOW, in terms of pay rises is simple, we have been generically restricted over the last five for sure, and probably more like ten years. Cathay currently, Lufty last week, Iberia this week, and BA later this year is purely an example of management sowing the wind etc.
If there is any example we might be (unfairly) said to be copying, it is that of the the Kings, the Marshalls. the Aylings, the Eddingtons of this world. Lets see a pay rise /time graph for all of them, overlaid with productivity results. Now let's compare that with an AVERAGE pilots graph for the same, then all sit back stupefied.
I'm with BRAL/BRYMON, not lucky enough to be BA. However, I recognise that BA mainline set the standard for the whole UK industry. Currnetly, my mega profitable little company is being shafted by our management, and it all cost costs costs given as the reason. And its bollocks.
So please, all of us, lets not lose sight of the objective. If BA , Cathay etc achieve a thumping good rise, then it will trickle down to everyone else in good time. What we must avoid is the backbiting encouraged by the likes of the Guvnor, or our Antipodean friends. Both for different reasons, neither for reasons that I, at any rate, can understand.
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Captain Jumbo - personally, I agree with you regarding the huge pay awards made to certain airline CEOs. As I said earlier, it's a team effort - and that applies from the top down. Given that the buck should stop with the CEO, I'd say that they should do what Herb Kelleher has done on occasions and have nil pay and profit share. Now that's putting your money where your mouth is!
I'm currently in Atlanta, and had a very interesting discussion this evening in a restaurant near the airport with several DL pilots about their recent pay award; their working conditions and their external business interests.
In my opinion, productivity should be the yardstick against which performance is judged. Look at the Southwest (and Ryanair) people - they manage many more rotations (and correspondingly hours in the air) than their equivalents in the likes of BA. FR crews are, apparently, amongst the best paid crews today. I have no problems with that at all - they work damn hard for it! However, there are other carriers where that isn't the case - especially on long haul flights. How much time, in each flight, is actually spent hands-on flying the aircraft? Not a lot. Pilots today are largely systems monitors - and to state otherwise is naive. The safety of the aircraft, frankly, rests with the cabin crew and the air traffic controllers - both of whom are remarkably poorly paid.
Like it or not, we are in an economic downturn/recession and that means that all costs need to be cut to the bone.
And for those of you out there that think that they can blackmail their employer into caving in to excessive pay demands, I have two words:
Aerolineas Argentinas.
There, the pilots thought that they could force the management into paying them more; so they struck. A couple of days later, the company was out of cash - so it folded. Those pilots went from having a job (albeit one that was not, in their opinion, paying enough) to having no job at all. Rather more seriously, none of their colleagues have jobs, either.
Do you really want that on your conscience?
I'm currently in Atlanta, and had a very interesting discussion this evening in a restaurant near the airport with several DL pilots about their recent pay award; their working conditions and their external business interests.
In my opinion, productivity should be the yardstick against which performance is judged. Look at the Southwest (and Ryanair) people - they manage many more rotations (and correspondingly hours in the air) than their equivalents in the likes of BA. FR crews are, apparently, amongst the best paid crews today. I have no problems with that at all - they work damn hard for it! However, there are other carriers where that isn't the case - especially on long haul flights. How much time, in each flight, is actually spent hands-on flying the aircraft? Not a lot. Pilots today are largely systems monitors - and to state otherwise is naive. The safety of the aircraft, frankly, rests with the cabin crew and the air traffic controllers - both of whom are remarkably poorly paid.
Like it or not, we are in an economic downturn/recession and that means that all costs need to be cut to the bone.
And for those of you out there that think that they can blackmail their employer into caving in to excessive pay demands, I have two words:
Aerolineas Argentinas.
There, the pilots thought that they could force the management into paying them more; so they struck. A couple of days later, the company was out of cash - so it folded. Those pilots went from having a job (albeit one that was not, in their opinion, paying enough) to having no job at all. Rather more seriously, none of their colleagues have jobs, either.
Do you really want that on your conscience?
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Guv you really are a prat. ‘Pilots are only systems operators’ The ‘real safety of the a/c lies with Cabin Crew and ATC’. No wonder that the nearest you get to a real airline is when you toss yourself off in bed at night and dream of some virtual carrier with you as CEO ! Go away and grow up. 
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Guvnor
I think you'll find that BA pilots work a lot harder than you think,the basic problem being the same one as every other airline with personnel problems.
The working conditions have changed hugely for the worse in the past number of years.Its been one way traffic all the way and people are getting fed up with it.For the majority it's not so much about money, its about feeling valued and having pride in your work.
Your statement above is insulting,it lets you down, it does prove beyond doubt that you are indeed a modern 'manager'!
I think you'll find that BA pilots work a lot harder than you think,the basic problem being the same one as every other airline with personnel problems.
The working conditions have changed hugely for the worse in the past number of years.Its been one way traffic all the way and people are getting fed up with it.For the majority it's not so much about money, its about feeling valued and having pride in your work.
Your statement above is insulting,it lets you down, it does prove beyond doubt that you are indeed a modern 'manager'!
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Guv.
As we are "largely systems monitors" I have an idea for a TV show. Put an airline pilot in charge of a nuclear power plant for a week and vice versa and lets watch the results. Just don't do it on my planet.
As we are "largely systems monitors" I have an idea for a TV show. Put an airline pilot in charge of a nuclear power plant for a week and vice versa and lets watch the results. Just don't do it on my planet.
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Look, all that I'm trying to do - obviously not very well - is put things in context a bit.
1) Pilots are systems monitors. Anyone want to argue against that?
2) Airline flying is a team effort.
3) From the safety point of view, after getting the aircraft down in (more or less) one piece, the flight deck are out of there as quickly as possible. The pax are the responsibility of the cabin crew - who also have to put up with air rage incidents - and who consequently are at greater risk. This has been shown by the deaths of a number of cabin crew in various incidents, helping to rescue pax.
4) Does anyone here seriously think that they could fly LGW-FRA (for example) if there was no ATC? I don't think so!
1) Pilots are systems monitors. Anyone want to argue against that?
2) Airline flying is a team effort.
3) From the safety point of view, after getting the aircraft down in (more or less) one piece, the flight deck are out of there as quickly as possible. The pax are the responsibility of the cabin crew - who also have to put up with air rage incidents - and who consequently are at greater risk. This has been shown by the deaths of a number of cabin crew in various incidents, helping to rescue pax.
4) Does anyone here seriously think that they could fly LGW-FRA (for example) if there was no ATC? I don't think so!
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Actualy ,no ATC would make it a lot easier. (more dangerous but easier
Anyway guv stop hijacking my jmc threads and steering them off track. We are supposed to be moaning about the lack off initiative/b@lls of some jmc pilots to try and improve pilots pay and conditions.
Anyway guv stop hijacking my jmc threads and steering them off track. We are supposed to be moaning about the lack off initiative/b@lls of some jmc pilots to try and improve pilots pay and conditions.
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Guvnor
"pilots are systems monitors, anyone want to argue with that"
Yes I will take the bait but it is almost too easy. Pilots ARE system monitors for MOST of the flight and that is as it should be. However, try and "monitor the systems" during approach with wind speeds in excess of 50kts when the A/P just can't cope with associated turbulence. And no I don't even mean as a crosswind which will beyond most pilot limits never mind the usual 25kts A/P limit an Yesy I do know the L1011 as well other types.Why do yoy think pilots have higher limits than the auto systems? These conditions are quite common in the UK in winter/spring never mind te tropics.
How well the the United PILOTS monitor the systems on a stricken aircraft and bring off a very succesful outcome under "IMPOSSIBLE" conditions at Sioux City? Now without any (and I really do mean that) disrespect to the cabin crew or ATC who all did a wonderful job in their own areas, how did they DIRECTLY affect the "landing" of that aircraft?
Finally, we are all a team and all equal in God's eyes are we? So what do think of an "employer" who proposes to pay Captains $8,000; F/Os $5,500; F/Es $6,000; and Cabin Crew $1,200 (+$500/750 for Pursers and CSDs)per month? Not very equal, especially for the cabin crew who are "totally" responsible for safety. Oh you think that's ok. You would have to wouldn't you because these figures are all from your very own website for your "airline". By the way the maintenance engineer figures aren't even't quoted, so they can't be very important can they.
"pilots are systems monitors, anyone want to argue with that"
Yes I will take the bait but it is almost too easy. Pilots ARE system monitors for MOST of the flight and that is as it should be. However, try and "monitor the systems" during approach with wind speeds in excess of 50kts when the A/P just can't cope with associated turbulence. And no I don't even mean as a crosswind which will beyond most pilot limits never mind the usual 25kts A/P limit an Yesy I do know the L1011 as well other types.Why do yoy think pilots have higher limits than the auto systems? These conditions are quite common in the UK in winter/spring never mind te tropics.
How well the the United PILOTS monitor the systems on a stricken aircraft and bring off a very succesful outcome under "IMPOSSIBLE" conditions at Sioux City? Now without any (and I really do mean that) disrespect to the cabin crew or ATC who all did a wonderful job in their own areas, how did they DIRECTLY affect the "landing" of that aircraft?
Finally, we are all a team and all equal in God's eyes are we? So what do think of an "employer" who proposes to pay Captains $8,000; F/Os $5,500; F/Es $6,000; and Cabin Crew $1,200 (+$500/750 for Pursers and CSDs)per month? Not very equal, especially for the cabin crew who are "totally" responsible for safety. Oh you think that's ok. You would have to wouldn't you because these figures are all from your very own website for your "airline". By the way the maintenance engineer figures aren't even't quoted, so they can't be very important can they.