JAA exam exemptions for military pilots- is it fair??
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JAA exam exemptions for military pilots- is it fair??
I was really surprised to find out recently that ex UK military pilots are now to be exempted from ALL of the JAA ground examinations when gaining civilian licenses!! I am a flight engineer, and despite my civilian qualifications and practical experience of working on a civil airliner flightdeck, I understand that I would receive no exemptions at all from the JAA ATPL exams. Call me cynical if you like, but this new exemption seems to have been arranged now that the exams are more difficult and a lot more expensive to do!!
I don't really know what the military training consists of, but I do know that there are some major differences between that and civilian flying.
Is this an example of the UK aviation "establishment" securing benefits for its favoured groups?
I may well have opened a "can of worms" here, and have no wish to see this become a slanging match (as everyone is ultimately prejudiced by their background and experiences), but my question is simple. WHY have they got this exemption, and yet there are no exemptions for other groups of qualified and relevently experienced individuals??
I don't really know what the military training consists of, but I do know that there are some major differences between that and civilian flying.
Is this an example of the UK aviation "establishment" securing benefits for its favoured groups?
I may well have opened a "can of worms" here, and have no wish to see this become a slanging match (as everyone is ultimately prejudiced by their background and experiences), but my question is simple. WHY have they got this exemption, and yet there are no exemptions for other groups of qualified and relevently experienced individuals??
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Over here in the states we have a Military Competency test. It deals with regulations that are not part of military flying. After taking this written test the FAA issues a Commercial Pilot License with Multi-engine and Instrument Ratings. During military training we undergo detailed ground school and all aspects of flying.
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Hopefully this is not true,there is no comparison between military examinations & the civilian ATPL,not that it makes much difference,military screening does ensure a reasonable I.Q level,especially important in the USA ,but few if any exemptions please from the WRITTEN tests.
There are indeed new accreditations for certain military pilots exempting them from the need to sit certain JAR written exams. But to qualify, such pilots must first have achieved at least 2000 hours in military fixed-wing aircraft, of which at least 1500 must be as P1C (500 of which may be P1C U/S). The maximum accreditation is available for such pilots who have also completed an appropriate ME OCU, including theoretical training; they will need to fly an IR, obtain a JAR Class 1 medical and pass JAR Air Law. Other non-ME pilots will have to sit 5 ground exams and complete a theoretical knowledge bridging course and exam as well as the IR and Class 1 medical and certain other requirements.
So if you're good enough to pass military selection, then pass military training, then achieve 2000 hours of which 1500 must be P1C time then yes, I suppose you could call that an 'easy' route to an ATPL. All these accreditations have been agreed by the CAA and the idea is to retain pilots long enough to qualify for these rights having served the nation first; most will be in their mid-30s before they qualify. It is considered that ample practical experience will have been assimilated in this time and only the specific differences in Air Law and Operational Procedures need to be formally examined.
You can find a resume at http://www.tgda.gov.uk/pdfs/FWACCR.pdf but the website hasn't been updated since April so it may be somewhat out of date.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
So if you're good enough to pass military selection, then pass military training, then achieve 2000 hours of which 1500 must be P1C time then yes, I suppose you could call that an 'easy' route to an ATPL. All these accreditations have been agreed by the CAA and the idea is to retain pilots long enough to qualify for these rights having served the nation first; most will be in their mid-30s before they qualify. It is considered that ample practical experience will have been assimilated in this time and only the specific differences in Air Law and Operational Procedures need to be formally examined.
You can find a resume at http://www.tgda.gov.uk/pdfs/FWACCR.pdf but the website hasn't been updated since April so it may be somewhat out of date.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
Surely a sensible thoroughly British pragmatic approach to a complex issue. I challenge anyone to outfly a Brit Mil mutli pilot with 1500 P1 hours For Heavens Sake.
I commend BEagle for his instrumental involvement with this development.
WWW
I commend BEagle for his instrumental involvement with this development.
WWW
Thanks mate! But although I might have written the original paper and got it past the $hit filters to a previous C-in-C Strike, total aviation person and all-round good egg who now runs the Jaguar F1 team strategic development (I understand) - but who still flies things like Hurricanes with a happy grin when he gets the chance - as well as the Scottish ex-AMP, the chaps who did the real spadework and negotiation with the CAA deserve the real credit!
There has been a thread running on this issue a little while ago on a different forum, I think, but as the search facility is currently down I cannot find it.
I suppose it depends which side of the fence you are sitting on as to how you feel about this one. I have to put my hand up and say that I am from the civilian world!
However, I feel quite uncomfortable about these changes. This is not to cast aspersions on our military colleagues who, in most cases, are highly skilled.
Is it true that most of the people in the CAA Licensing Department who have had much to do with the JAR/OPS changes are ex military Flight Navigators?!
Also, at a time when there seems to be a shortage of experienced pilots for the airline world this is a political move to address this situation.
Finally, there are really no short cuts to ensuring that the people who fly the big shiny jets are fully trained and qualified for the job. If the system means that people are getting licences without the full background of knowledge which is required then this will show in the overall standard and will be yet another ingredient in the subsequent "error chain".
I suppose it depends which side of the fence you are sitting on as to how you feel about this one. I have to put my hand up and say that I am from the civilian world!
However, I feel quite uncomfortable about these changes. This is not to cast aspersions on our military colleagues who, in most cases, are highly skilled.
Is it true that most of the people in the CAA Licensing Department who have had much to do with the JAR/OPS changes are ex military Flight Navigators?!
Also, at a time when there seems to be a shortage of experienced pilots for the airline world this is a political move to address this situation.
Finally, there are really no short cuts to ensuring that the people who fly the big shiny jets are fully trained and qualified for the job. If the system means that people are getting licences without the full background of knowledge which is required then this will show in the overall standard and will be yet another ingredient in the subsequent "error chain".
Out of interest, when did you last have a mandatory oral check of knowledge? Every RAF ME pilot has to have them - usually every 12 months but for those with higher assessments every 18 months and for some of us (very few) every 24 - no matter how many hours or years you have! We test 'relevant' knowledge, not 'what colour the LRG light is' or 'what is the correct series of lights for a tethered balloon to display on the ground at night'!!!
Ruby. 2 flashing reds and 1 flashing green in a 25m equilateral triangle with the green downwind, by the way!!
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
Ruby. 2 flashing reds and 1 flashing green in a 25m equilateral triangle with the green downwind, by the way!!
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
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Eminently sensible if you ask me but, just because you get an ATPL largely on the back of your experience, please remember that we do things differently. Not better, differently and our operational procedures have been refined for years to bring us to the state of expertise we are at. For the first few months or whatever is a suitable time,please remember to wait until you are asked and you will get on a lot better.
For the record, my experience is totally civilian and I have trained for 25 years on various types from heavy turboprops to multi jets and I welcome the experience and training you bring to the industry.
For the record, my experience is totally civilian and I have trained for 25 years on various types from heavy turboprops to multi jets and I welcome the experience and training you bring to the industry.
Don't see the problem unless "Us and them" is creeping in. As so rightly said before, military ME pilots are well trained and very capable. The idea that military/civil big jet flying is vastly different could be seen as ludicrous. Unless of course you mean the military man/woman is likely to have more skills (AAR, formation flying etc) than just flying straight and level and landing on nice long bits of tarmac/concrete.
Apart from different SOPs, can anyone tell me what is the difference between,say, a 1500 hour RAF VC10 or 1011 pilot converting to a shiny 777 or 767 or a 1500 hour 737 or 146 pilot converting to the same aircraft? Both will have held multi type-ratings and Instrument ratings and both are experienced and presumably proficient pilots. Both have flown the same airways routes to the same high standard. If they can both pass the paperwork (whether by exemption or otherwise) the end result will be a safe and efficient airframe driver.
The only reason I can think of folk wanting to slag the ex military guy off is the "Nobody ever gave me owt for nowt" school being rankled at what they perceive as an unfair boost to the post military career of some young scallywag who has enjoyed himself throwing expensive hardware around at the taxpayers expense. (And got trained FREE to boot!!) The fact of the matter probably is that the military pilot has had to pass just as many exams as the civil pilot in his/her career and at last the CAA has dragged its self into the (at least) 20th century and actually admitted that some of all this military training may actually be relevant to being able to fly an aeroplane!
Hope it is allowed to bear fruit.
Doc C.
Apart from different SOPs, can anyone tell me what is the difference between,say, a 1500 hour RAF VC10 or 1011 pilot converting to a shiny 777 or 767 or a 1500 hour 737 or 146 pilot converting to the same aircraft? Both will have held multi type-ratings and Instrument ratings and both are experienced and presumably proficient pilots. Both have flown the same airways routes to the same high standard. If they can both pass the paperwork (whether by exemption or otherwise) the end result will be a safe and efficient airframe driver.
The only reason I can think of folk wanting to slag the ex military guy off is the "Nobody ever gave me owt for nowt" school being rankled at what they perceive as an unfair boost to the post military career of some young scallywag who has enjoyed himself throwing expensive hardware around at the taxpayers expense. (And got trained FREE to boot!!) The fact of the matter probably is that the military pilot has had to pass just as many exams as the civil pilot in his/her career and at last the CAA has dragged its self into the (at least) 20th century and actually admitted that some of all this military training may actually be relevant to being able to fly an aeroplane!
Hope it is allowed to bear fruit.
Doc C.
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As an Ex-mil FE (11 years multi pure jet most on 3* BA conversion)
now civvy for 3 years, non sched, EU operations, ad hoch and charter. I've sat behind a few guys in my short time.
Anyone who thinks this is a bad Idea is full of it.......
The most competent, PC, aimiable, friendly, polite, patient and able pilots I fly with are ex-mil.(Brit and US).
I also fly with Idiots and then I realy work for my LOW pay.
now civvy for 3 years, non sched, EU operations, ad hoch and charter. I've sat behind a few guys in my short time.
Anyone who thinks this is a bad Idea is full of it.......
The most competent, PC, aimiable, friendly, polite, patient and able pilots I fly with are ex-mil.(Brit and US).
I also fly with Idiots and then I realy work for my LOW pay.
Sure - if you can pass selection and meet the requirements then there should be no reason why not. Enjoy your time in cabbage kit, NBC suit, gas mask etc during military training. I'm sure that your fellow students will be enthralled with your stories about flying as you share a soaking wet para-tepee with them in Wales in the winter.....hiding from someone who wishes to give you some practical R2I training, perhaps? And just think how envious your ex-airline colleagues will be when you're flying some ancient C130 which should have been replaced years ago - and being paid a fraction of your previous salary.
Mind you, I have met a Fighter Controller who actually gave up an airline F/O job to join the military because he found the airline 'so utterly boring'.
Mind you, I have met a Fighter Controller who actually gave up an airline F/O job to join the military because he found the airline 'so utterly boring'.
It depends on your background on how easy the transition is. To get all the exemptions you have to be very experienced on heavy aircraft. For example, I have been in the RAF for 16 years, have over 5000 hours, 2500 of those on 4 engine heavy jets and I don't qualify for all the exemptions.
Before I went down the CAA ATPL route, I was qualified to command a 4 engine passenger jet flying from a somewhere like LHR, across the pond in MNPS/RVSM airspace into somewhere like JFK. Now I have the ATPL, what's the difference - the registration of the aircraft I'm allowed to fly has changed!
But I'm glad I did all the exams, and I'm sure the knowledge of how to do manual air plots across the Atlantic or how Decca works will come in useful one day - maybe not!
My point is why did I have to do them in the first place!
Before I went down the CAA ATPL route, I was qualified to command a 4 engine passenger jet flying from a somewhere like LHR, across the pond in MNPS/RVSM airspace into somewhere like JFK. Now I have the ATPL, what's the difference - the registration of the aircraft I'm allowed to fly has changed!
But I'm glad I did all the exams, and I'm sure the knowledge of how to do manual air plots across the Atlantic or how Decca works will come in useful one day - maybe not!
My point is why did I have to do them in the first place!
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The exemptions for military pilots have been granted for some 25 years to those with Transport backgrounds and sufficient experience. Previously we had the absurd situation where you could carry the Head of State in one VC10 with roundels on it, but couldn't carry Joe Bloggs in another with a civil registration.
Anyone who has ever been through the RAF "mill" will tell you that it is far from easy and unlike the civil "mill" scrubs nearly as many as actually pass. There is no chance with the Services of getting "Daddy" to cough up another load of cash so that you can have a second crack at it either.Believe me, the standards are high.
Before saying that the granting of exemptions to ex military pilots is anything other than sensible I suggest that the civvies come up with some hard instances where the practice has been shown to be unsafe over all these years. Failing that they should be less than keen to put the military people through two apprentiships in the same trade.
Anyone who has ever been through the RAF "mill" will tell you that it is far from easy and unlike the civil "mill" scrubs nearly as many as actually pass. There is no chance with the Services of getting "Daddy" to cough up another load of cash so that you can have a second crack at it either.Believe me, the standards are high.
Before saying that the granting of exemptions to ex military pilots is anything other than sensible I suggest that the civvies come up with some hard instances where the practice has been shown to be unsafe over all these years. Failing that they should be less than keen to put the military people through two apprentiships in the same trade.