Air France severe turbulence, mayday call
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I have been reading Avherald, which I have to admit I hadnīt heard about it before. A bit alarming?. Overeaction?. There are some interesting comments, specially about an Iberia FA who tells that crossing the area, she never found any serious turbulence, or at least to stop the service. And someone from TAP, who says they cross continiously without major incidence.
I Have Control
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Passenger rubbish.
Passengers know nothing about such things. They are blissfully unaware if a crew have adroitly steered the aircraft through a complex rash of Cb's, painting a multitude of hues of red on their skillfully utilised radar systems.
And of course, they can see nothing ahead out of their windows. Or much from the sides.
There is much nonsense written on this thread by non-pro pilots.
Nothing unusual there.
And of course, they can see nothing ahead out of their windows. Or much from the sides.
There is much nonsense written on this thread by non-pro pilots.
Nothing unusual there.
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Solar
That's the problem these days WE do NOT need their support. We are paid and checked to be professional enough to do our job, without people who have little knowledge of it saying "they have a right to pass judgement and comment".
Before anyone says it, NO you do NOT pay my salary, my company does. You buy a product / service from my company. Otherwise I could say I pay the salary of whoever comments by the goods and services I purchase.
that'l garner a lot of support from the paying customers.
Before anyone says it, NO you do NOT pay my salary, my company does. You buy a product / service from my company. Otherwise I could say I pay the salary of whoever comments by the goods and services I purchase.
I would not take too much notice of the Aviation Herald as it is a website full of crap - they even make a big deal over a birdstrike which is followed by a completely normal landing or a passenger requiring medical assistance on landing - they go way over the top and offer a whole new insight in to **** journalism.
I have just had a first time look at this site, and in my opinion you have it absolutely wrong. This site is not "**** journalism" it is a list of accidents and incidents, and thus of interest to professional pilots. Just because an incident does not result in a crash does not mean it is not interesting! I was impressed by the level of aviation related detail which is included in their reports. It looks like a pretty good site to me, and now have it bookmarked.
If you just want to salivate over crashes, there are plenty of places on the net to satisfy your tastes, I think.
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I joined this site to get accurate aviation information and have. The info here is more accurate then media news of same. Thanks to all who contribute to this great forum.
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Speaking as a non-pilot pax (Okay, I work in Flight Operations, but I'm still pax) I trust the pilots 100%. What other option do passengers have anyway once they're on board?
I can't understand these people who know nothing about aviation, pay to get on an aeroplane and then sit there quietly worrying about every little wobble or shake or bit of cloud they can see on the horizon.
I think:
The Captain is smarter than me.
The Captain gets paid an awful lot more money than me.
The Captain has been through an awful lot of training.
The Captain has worked very hard to get to sit in the pointy end.
He also has all the information at his disposal. If he's happy to operate then I'm more than happy to sit behind him and read my book.
I can't understand these people who know nothing about aviation, pay to get on an aeroplane and then sit there quietly worrying about every little wobble or shake or bit of cloud they can see on the horizon.
I think:
The Captain is smarter than me.
The Captain gets paid an awful lot more money than me.
The Captain has been through an awful lot of training.
The Captain has worked very hard to get to sit in the pointy end.
He also has all the information at his disposal. If he's happy to operate then I'm more than happy to sit behind him and read my book.
Pegase Driver
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The Captain is smarter than me.
The Captain gets paid an awful lot more money than me.
The Captain has been through an awful lot of training.
The Captain has worked very hard to get to sit in the pointy end.
The Captain gets paid an awful lot more money than me.
The Captain has been through an awful lot of training.
The Captain has worked very hard to get to sit in the pointy end.
Unfortunately, in this particular AF445 case some of the statements above did not seem to apply. Leaks and unverified rumors from another AF forum would indicate that once more someone decided to climb quite high that night despite the forecast and the history of that particular flight .
( FL380 with 196 Tons is rumored )
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ATC Watcher
AF Corporate has minimized the incident, while various journalists have spewed forth all sorts of unsubstantiated "facts". We've had reports that the a/c was on UN873, UN741 and UN866. One report stated that the a/c was on UN741 and near waypoint DEKON! No such w/p on that airway. Another, that the a/c was 10NM from the supposed location [estimate 3° 00'N 31° 05'W] of the AF447 accident!
After a deal of study, I came to the conclusion that the a/c was on UN866 and the last squawk was received around 0238z when 254NM from MSS (Mossoro), or 18NM past MAGNO [255NM to DEKON]. Indications are that the incident occurred 12mins later at 0250z near 0° 53'S 35° 59'W. A mere 231.6°T x 375NM from the AF447 estimate mentioned above. Not 10NM as claimed by one journalist!
AF445 was out of SBGL/CIG gate at 2312z, off 2332z, vectored:-
-PCX- ~ SVD = 643NM 1H 31M [425KTS] 0103z UZ10
-SVD- ~ MSS = 466NM 1H 02M [450KTS] 0205z UW50
MSS ~ MAGNO = 236NM 0H 31M [460KTS] 0236z UN866
MAGNO ~ SSR = 018NM 0H 02M [460KTS] 0238z (last squawk)
SSR ~ ..LOC = 090NM 0H 12M [460KTS] 0250z Incident?
FL380 has been quoted, and my understanding is that UN866 is a unidirectional northbound only airway with "even" and "odd" FL's allocatible. However, there is 80 percent less traffic on UN866 compared with UN873 and it follows that FL deviations would result in 80 percent less chance of conflict, plus the advantage of all traffic moving in the same direction. UN741 adjacent to the west, is the unidirectional southbound airway. The three parallel airways mentioned are each separated by 90NM. There could have been more traffic that night on UN866 than UN873, due to the forecast ITCZ activity to the east.
Subject to a valid copy of the flight plan surfacing, I rest my case.
mm43
Unfortunately, in this particular AF445 case some of the statements above did not seem to apply. Leaks and unverified rumors from another AF forum would indicate that once more someone decided to climb quite high that night despite the forecast and the history of that particular flight .
( FL380 with 196 Tons is rumored )
( FL380 with 196 Tons is rumored )
After a deal of study, I came to the conclusion that the a/c was on UN866 and the last squawk was received around 0238z when 254NM from MSS (Mossoro), or 18NM past MAGNO [255NM to DEKON]. Indications are that the incident occurred 12mins later at 0250z near 0° 53'S 35° 59'W. A mere 231.6°T x 375NM from the AF447 estimate mentioned above. Not 10NM as claimed by one journalist!
AF445 was out of SBGL/CIG gate at 2312z, off 2332z, vectored:-
-PCX- ~ SVD = 643NM 1H 31M [425KTS] 0103z UZ10
-SVD- ~ MSS = 466NM 1H 02M [450KTS] 0205z UW50
MSS ~ MAGNO = 236NM 0H 31M [460KTS] 0236z UN866
MAGNO ~ SSR = 018NM 0H 02M [460KTS] 0238z (last squawk)
SSR ~ ..LOC = 090NM 0H 12M [460KTS] 0250z Incident?
FL380 has been quoted, and my understanding is that UN866 is a unidirectional northbound only airway with "even" and "odd" FL's allocatible. However, there is 80 percent less traffic on UN866 compared with UN873 and it follows that FL deviations would result in 80 percent less chance of conflict, plus the advantage of all traffic moving in the same direction. UN741 adjacent to the west, is the unidirectional southbound airway. The three parallel airways mentioned are each separated by 90NM. There could have been more traffic that night on UN866 than UN873, due to the forecast ITCZ activity to the east.
Subject to a valid copy of the flight plan surfacing, I rest my case.
mm43
Last edited by mm43; 15th Dec 2009 at 02:53. Reason: Route change - PCX~SVD~MSS
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Speaking as a non-pilot pax (Okay, I work in Flight Operations, but I'm still pax) I trust the pilots 100%. What other option do passengers have anyway once they're on board?
I can't understand these people who know nothing about aviation, pay to get on an aeroplane and then sit there quietly worrying about every little wobble or shake or bit of cloud they can see on the horizon.
I think:
The Captain is smarter than me.
The Captain gets paid an awful lot more money than me.
The Captain has been through an awful lot of training.
The Captain has worked very hard to get to sit in the pointy end.
He also has all the information at his disposal. If he's happy to operate then I'm more than happy to sit behind him and read my book.
I can't understand these people who know nothing about aviation, pay to get on an aeroplane and then sit there quietly worrying about every little wobble or shake or bit of cloud they can see on the horizon.
I think:
The Captain is smarter than me.
The Captain gets paid an awful lot more money than me.
The Captain has been through an awful lot of training.
The Captain has worked very hard to get to sit in the pointy end.
He also has all the information at his disposal. If he's happy to operate then I'm more than happy to sit behind him and read my book.
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@mm43 --> where the heck do you find that sort of information! Dude, I thought I was resourceful! Well done to you Sir, kudos, kudos.
Now, no one go and ask any journos to comment about whether the passengers of AF445 should now all be hospitalised because of the increased radiation danger from flying through the storms ...
Now, no one go and ask any journos to comment about whether the passengers of AF445 should now all be hospitalised because of the increased radiation danger from flying through the storms ...
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Why not Pan Pan Pan 'stead of Mayday?
Just wondering why Mayday is called when a Pan call would seem more suitable. Not up to speed on current SPOs on these routes, but had always considered Mayday to be in it's literal (French form) a call for help, as opposed to Pan which is a warning.
Would appreciate some enlightenment here.
Would appreciate some enlightenment here.
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GHOTI
It's a subjective call.
MAYDAY is essentially designed to be used in "dire" situations where the craft is in imminent danger, e.g. loss of control which could ultimately lead to the loss of the craft and those on-board.
PAN is used for situations where help is urgently needed in relation to persons on-board, e.g. a medical condition requiring an urgent diversion, but the craft is not in danger.
In the case where ATC clearance is not available/obtainable and the situation is one where a deviation from your clearance is occurring or is immediately required, the use of MAYDAY is acceptable. Adherence to any known jurisdictional emergency procedures should if possible then be followed.
mm43
It's a subjective call.
MAYDAY is essentially designed to be used in "dire" situations where the craft is in imminent danger, e.g. loss of control which could ultimately lead to the loss of the craft and those on-board.
PAN is used for situations where help is urgently needed in relation to persons on-board, e.g. a medical condition requiring an urgent diversion, but the craft is not in danger.
In the case where ATC clearance is not available/obtainable and the situation is one where a deviation from your clearance is occurring or is immediately required, the use of MAYDAY is acceptable. Adherence to any known jurisdictional emergency procedures should if possible then be followed.
mm43
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Apparently from an AF source: A/C confirmed to have been at FL380, 1st level immediately above Optimum ,severe turb encountered, requested on HF to descend, no immediate reply, , crew called Mayday, (as it is planned in their company procedures) and descended to 360.
Like the AF445 and the 1996 accident (AF 747-400 above Ouagadougou) the interesting question is the Wx forecast received and the subsequent choice of route and FL .
Like the AF445 and the 1996 accident (AF 747-400 above Ouagadougou) the interesting question is the Wx forecast received and the subsequent choice of route and FL .
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PAN would not be appropriate if you were descending with no clearance because of severe turbulence through opposite direction altitudes. Mayday is for problems that need immediate vigilance even if the controllers don't hear it, other flights will. I think I would move right of course a bit if I heard that on my airway. We have demonstrated over Brazil how accurate the GPS is.
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P51 writes:
PAN would not be appropriate if you were descending with no clearance because of severe turbulence through opposite direction altitudes. Mayday is for problems that need immediate vigilance even if the controllers don't hear it, other flights will.
PAN would not be appropriate if you were descending with no clearance because of severe turbulence through opposite direction altitudes. Mayday is for problems that need immediate vigilance even if the controllers don't hear it, other flights will.
Can't hold it against the crew for being more diligent in reporting.
Frankly, on that route, a few extra maydays won't be a problem - given the mystery of AF447.
Much better to have to filter through the possible "boy who cried wolf" issues and get extra data than live through another 447-style mystery.
One must look at it as a teachable moment.
We're better off if crews have a lower reporting threshold for the moment, as we'll capture more data.
Even if it does turn out that AF447 was lost due to overconfidence (not saying it was) or through a fault in the airframe/software (not saying that, either) it would be much better to have lots of reports about the conditions in the ITCZ.
Any such information can help with training, and can help with engineering.
Again, making no comment about exactly what happened to AF447 - just putting forth the idea that all reporting at this point can be helpful.
Bit of old history here... Before organized police forces, the "private" security forces (hired thugs) relied on people called town cryers.
Those folks announced the news, such as they knew it.
Personally, I think it might be worthwhile to pay a lot of attention to the data from flights through this zone. I realize it might cost a few extra bucks to download from the "quick" recorders, but perhaps that's what should be done - so that we can get metrics on "average" flights and see if there are any trends.
AF447 was clearly way outside of the expected - so we need to re-tune what we expect on these routes until we figure out what happened.
...