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ZSPD Cargo Plane Crash

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ZSPD Cargo Plane Crash

Old 15th Dec 2009, 23:52
  #261 (permalink)  
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Acceleration Check?

As with Emirates at MEL, an acceleration check would have saved the day.
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Old 16th Dec 2009, 01:46
  #262 (permalink)  
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...an acceleration check would have saved the day.
And, if as Weapons_Hot noted took place, perhaps WITHOUT relying on all the automatic stuff and setting take-off power manually, might've saved the day as well. IF this is in fact what happened.
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 22:35
  #263 (permalink)  
quidquid excusatio prandium pro
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A couple of things here;

An acceleration check, as with correct V-speeds and distances, is predicated on accurate calculation of aircraft weight, specific runway-legal weight limits, and resultant flex temp values. As a possible contributory factor, did this crew have the specific data for that runway, or did they use the generic charts from the AFM performance pages?

The ATS ‘grabs’ the throttles noticeably, even had the TO CLAMP annunciation been overlooked, that grab is all the more significant by its absence. So I think not, but you never know, fatigue has a way of making good pilots inattentive, extreme fatigue, dangerously so.

As an aside, the acceleration check, in my view, is traditionally assigned to the Flight Engineer (really wish I had the salty ‘ol bastards back, nothing like a flying spanner to whack an outa-control copilot into shape ). A very valuable one no doubt, but the two-man-crew PF/PNF concentration requirements on a critically loaded heavy jet takeoff roll normally make this additional tasking a possible detriment, a dangerous distraction even, to the safety of the maneuver. Low visibility and contaminated surfaces make it even more so.

The takeoff, it goes without saying, should have been determined successful before the aircraft leaves the chocks.
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 23:01
  #264 (permalink)  
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Sanity Check

Alright, let's call it something else. I call it a sanity check. As DC8 points out, IF there was a mistake in the takeoff calculations, by computer or manually, and IF the power setting was actually too low, someone (the captain) should have said, "Hey, this isn't close to the power setting used for the last takeoff I made under these conditions!" That's why he's the captain. He has the experience to decide if what is calculated is reasonable. If it isn't, the captain should demand a recheck and also should do it himself. The same thing for an acceleration check. It's pretty rough, but if you don't get what you should expect pretty early in the roll, you should stop, go back, and recheck. That's better than plowing up the ground at the far end. You're putting your life on the line if you blindly accept what comes out of a calculator. Simply ask, does this make sense? I'll bet the guys at MEL wish they had done a sanity check.
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 23:32
  #265 (permalink)  
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Whatever "check" one chooses to assign to the situation, the" power lever through the boost bar", rendering 62k is always permissable. If an experienced crew on the 11 was going down the runway and did not feel the aircraft had adequate acceleration, one would expect full thrust application. Something else is at play here. Hopefully the news will leak down to the operator level.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 08:31
  #266 (permalink)  
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Any answers yet on this one, too many questions and its gone very quiet?
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 12:26
  #267 (permalink)  
Trash du Blanc
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Read post 268.
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Old 15th Jan 2010, 18:55
  #268 (permalink)  
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Read post 268.
I can't believe they missed the clamp mode. PM should see this as mandatory. If this would be the case, what a waste...
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Old 18th Jan 2010, 02:30
  #269 (permalink)  
Trash du Blanc
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I can't believe they missed the clamp mode
I don't have access to my books right now, but I think "CLAMP" is displayed even with A/T's off....
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Old 27th Jan 2010, 11:48
  #270 (permalink)  
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Avient MD11 back in the air

Avient are back in the air with another MD11 - reg Z-BAT - ferried from MIA to LGG. One of the contributors on Freight Dogs say they are trying to recruit an experienced loadie instructor, this rather sounds like a cart before the horse scenario?
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Old 2nd Feb 2010, 02:46
  #271 (permalink)  
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FMA changes


Also, at 80kt, the FMA T/O THRUST changes to CLAMP (and the "green box" or any items in the essential takeoff items checklist disappear; the FD pitch bar biases into view).
At 100kt, the ABS (provided in T/O) will change deceleration rate to MAX.

A very wise chief pilot once said of the FMA, "you live and die by the FMA".
Never truer words spoken, and no inference should be made to the crew this accident.

On the MD11, it matters not what is set on the FCP, FMC or what you perceive is set or not, or happening; unless it is on the FMA, it isn't happening or won't happen.

Still, I want to know WHY.
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Old 22nd Feb 2010, 04:12
  #272 (permalink)  
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Worth mentioning perhaps that today, after OH-LGG returns from Delhi, Finnair will retire the MD-11 from passenger service. It´s the very last scheduled passenger revenue flight. The aircraft is later destined for Singapore for freighter conversion. Besides, Finnair presently has two of them for sale. Any takers?
Finn47 is offline  

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