ZSPD Cargo Plane Crash
Just Curious
Pilots flying freight, how much time do you allow in pre flight to check the actual load and the load sheets agree? Do you always have a loadmaster with you? Does the loadmaster monitor the entire loading or check numbers after the fact?
I'm not talking FEDEX or regular stuff where you are "in house" so to speak but in cases like this one were you are picking up from assorted locations.
Thanks
20driver
I'm not talking FEDEX or regular stuff where you are "in house" so to speak but in cases like this one were you are picking up from assorted locations.
Thanks
20driver
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On the B744 freighter used to allow enough time to check to ensure that I was happy. Would check that all the locks and latches were correct and all loads securely fastened as in turbulence you dont want any items coming loose and puncturing the cabin. Also check for smells and spills.....not so obvious with livestock!
As for weight well you have to trust the loadmaster has the correct figures from the shippers.
Remember in God we trust....all else we check!
As for weight well you have to trust the loadmaster has the correct figures from the shippers.
Remember in God we trust....all else we check!
tflier
I realize that it's difficult to thoroughly check some other professions work, but is there a means to identify and adjust for during the takeoff roll? I am talking about weight errors that are gross enough to result in overuns under the set thrust level.
As for weight well you have to trust the loadmaster has the correct figures from the shippers.
Remember in God we trust....all else we check!
Remember in God we trust....all else we check!
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I've got it.....how about the loadmaster has to go with you on every flight. He just might take extra care in loading.
We had a test hop in a DC-6 after an aileron change and the Captain said he wouldn't go unless the mechanic who signed off the work went along with us [ I was a lowly FE at the time ]. Well, after much discussion, the mechanic agreed to go. You should've seen the sweat pour off his face as the Captain put the plane through a bunch of maneuvers. The Co-Pilot and I were a little nervous as well !!
We had a test hop in a DC-6 after an aileron change and the Captain said he wouldn't go unless the mechanic who signed off the work went along with us [ I was a lowly FE at the time ]. Well, after much discussion, the mechanic agreed to go. You should've seen the sweat pour off his face as the Captain put the plane through a bunch of maneuvers. The Co-Pilot and I were a little nervous as well !!
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Well, I never signed off any aircraft I was not perfectly happy to fly in (and have flown in aircraft I had worked on many times). Even if it is a permit-to-fly ferry flight, I make sure that I wouldn´t be worried should I fly with it (as should any engineer or mechanic).
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tflier: "On the B744 freighter used to allow enough time to check to ensure that I was happy. Would check that all the locks and latches were correct and all loads securely fastened"
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Very odd comment Glueball.......obviously no experience of B744F!
A walkaround of the maindeck on a fully loaded B744 checking what you can takes 10 minutes. No loadmaster is carried on the B744, however there is a loading supervisor who you liaise with. Used to find once in a while items not fastened as securely as I desired, also found a load blocking the fire extinguisher nozzles in the roof.
You can check the tyre pressures on the gear synoptic on the lower EICAS, so it's probably best to give it a glance!!
But then all pilots are different, some are maybe a wee bit more blase than others!
A walkaround of the maindeck on a fully loaded B744 checking what you can takes 10 minutes. No loadmaster is carried on the B744, however there is a loading supervisor who you liaise with. Used to find once in a while items not fastened as securely as I desired, also found a load blocking the fire extinguisher nozzles in the roof.
You can check the tyre pressures on the gear synoptic on the lower EICAS, so it's probably best to give it a glance!!
But then all pilots are different, some are maybe a wee bit more blase than others!
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DC-ATE,
the loadies do go on the flights, their part of the crew.
(I stand corrected: apparently lodies do not ride on all aircraft. I guess it varies from company to company.)
the loadies do go on the flights, their part of the crew.
(I stand corrected: apparently lodies do not ride on all aircraft. I guess it varies from company to company.)
Last edited by act700; 7th Dec 2009 at 16:36.
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Originally Posted by GlueBall
Are you saying that you would come early on your own for the extra time required to check all the locks, rails and fitted netting of all the pallets on a fully loaded 74? Wow! Don't trust your loaders/handling agents? What's next? Will you be checking tire pressures? Don't trust your maintenance staff . . . ? 
- belly nets not installed (- expect loadshift at rotation)
- aft belly full on the loadsheet but empty in the aircraft - forgotten to load
- wrong containers loaded
- aircraft loaded "the other way round", container for aft position loaded in the front position and vv
- pallets build until under the roof but not secured for forward movement
- etc etc
The tiny difference is - I am sitting inside that plane and if it crashes, I might be dead - they are staying outside and if my plane crashes - they can still feed their family and kids. They might have to answer some questions - but they are still alive.
Checking the load is simply part of my job, if I don't do it, it may kill me. Same as I make sure I have bunkered enough fuel before takeoff.
And re trusting your maintenance staff, you still do your preflight walkaround, do you???
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Reduced power t/o's have a lot to answer for!
lomapaseo
"....I am talking about weight errors that are gross enough to result in overuns under the set thrust level."
There you have it.
Assumed load. ASUMMED means to me makes an "ASS of yoU and Me."
Basics: Full load, then use full power, period. Calculating and using reduced power is just another hole in the Swiss cheese.To hell with what the bean counters or whoever when they sqeal.
Not saying it was the case in this accident but extra power, if they were on reduced power, may have assisted them.
K.I.S.S.
"....I am talking about weight errors that are gross enough to result in overuns under the set thrust level."
There you have it.
Assumed load. ASUMMED means to me makes an "ASS of yoU and Me."
Basics: Full load, then use full power, period. Calculating and using reduced power is just another hole in the Swiss cheese.To hell with what the bean counters or whoever when they sqeal.
Not saying it was the case in this accident but extra power, if they were on reduced power, may have assisted them.
K.I.S.S.
Last edited by doubleu-anker; 7th Dec 2009 at 04:18.
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Loadies don't ride along on scheduled freighter routes, but they, or equivalent competent company trained reps, supervise the loading. I'm the captain and I don't go downstairs to dabble with cargo. 
It seems that there is not much information about this accident.
I would like to think for another scenario, It could be the crew forgotten or set a wrong flap setting.
It can be another case like the MD80 series in Madrid and the B732 in Buenos Aires-Argentina.
In the MD11/DC10, you can set unlimited flap settings between 0 and 22' for Take Off.
Just another possible scenario.
I would like to think for another scenario, It could be the crew forgotten or set a wrong flap setting.
It can be another case like the MD80 series in Madrid and the B732 in Buenos Aires-Argentina.
In the MD11/DC10, you can set unlimited flap settings between 0 and 22' for Take Off.
Just another possible scenario.
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Kingpilot: Yep, the Korean MD11 was probably on the 3rd or final stage segment. But, still not as most people are assuming that this A/C seems to more accident prone on landing than on T/O or climb as, in this case. What´s evident is, that a lot of people think this is a bad plane, due to a questionable saftey record. The fact of the matter is, that it is more aerodyanamicaly chalenging than most heavy jets but, nothing that that well trained crews cannot handle. All accidents have a to be investigated and from them we, learn and change any basic faults that might have caused them.
Last edited by MPH; 9th Dec 2009 at 11:54.
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Loadies don't ride along on scheduled freighter routes, but they, or equivalent competent company trained reps, supervise the loading. I'm the captain and I don't go downstairs to dabble with cargo
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cosmiccomet,
dial-a-flap setting on MD-11 is between 10 and 25. You cannot take off with flaps at 0/slats only (or shouldn't be able to providing the config warning system is functioning normally). The dial-a-flap setting is normally set at 25 for t/o and 15 for approach in our company (followed by gates flaps28 and flaps35 or flaps50)
dial-a-flap setting on MD-11 is between 10 and 25. You cannot take off with flaps at 0/slats only (or shouldn't be able to providing the config warning system is functioning normally). The dial-a-flap setting is normally set at 25 for t/o and 15 for approach in our company (followed by gates flaps28 and flaps35 or flaps50)
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I had been wondering for a while about the configuration warning system on an MD-11. Is it a reliable system? There have been previous cases of simultaneous warning system failure and flaps not being extended on other aircraft. I wonder if the witnesses mentioned earlier were able to see whether any flap was set on this occasion?
Last edited by Feathers McGraw; 7th Dec 2009 at 14:52. Reason: Clarification
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Bug smasher,
Your argument cuts both ways. How about all those steam guys, and I am one too, that seem to have problems with keeping the A320 shiny side up? All a/c will take a bite out your ass, just seems the MD-11 bites a little more often and harder, especially when slow.
Your argument cuts both ways. How about all those steam guys, and I am one too, that seem to have problems with keeping the A320 shiny side up? All a/c will take a bite out your ass, just seems the MD-11 bites a little more often and harder, especially when slow.
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Bug smasher,
I'm not getting on your case here but your statement that the MD doesn't have all the flight envelope protection schemes...
Pitch rate limiting
Pitch attitude limiting
LSAS speed protection over and under
LSAS stall protection
Auto throttle speed protection
Auto throttle stall protection
LSAS nose lowering
Flap limiting
Etc. Etc.
It is as advanced as the 777 in all aspects except the 1 big one, the WING, which is why Honeywell had to do such an excellent job on the automatic systems. I don't know if you fly the MD but if you don't, next time you see a DC-10 and MD-11, compare the horizontal stab size. It's scary how much they took off, 35%.
That saying, all these protection schemes deal with one aspect, pitch attitude, which is a repeating factor in MD-11 accidents/incidents.
I'm not getting on your case here but your statement that the MD doesn't have all the flight envelope protection schemes...
Pitch rate limiting
Pitch attitude limiting
LSAS speed protection over and under
LSAS stall protection
Auto throttle speed protection
Auto throttle stall protection
LSAS nose lowering
Flap limiting
Etc. Etc.
It is as advanced as the 777 in all aspects except the 1 big one, the WING, which is why Honeywell had to do such an excellent job on the automatic systems. I don't know if you fly the MD but if you don't, next time you see a DC-10 and MD-11, compare the horizontal stab size. It's scary how much they took off, 35%.
That saying, all these protection schemes deal with one aspect, pitch attitude, which is a repeating factor in MD-11 accidents/incidents.