Aer Lingus to Leave Dublin Forever.
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IALPA destroys an Airline. PART ONE.
The Truth Will Set You Free.
The post above from milehighdriver is most illuminating. Naturally, it first needs to be de-dwarfed in order to determine the reality of what it tells us. Permit me to take this thankless task upon myself.
The pilots have spent €30 million of their own money, an average of €56,604 for each of their 530 strong number, in purchasing a 4.5% holding of the 534.04 million shares on the register. That's 24,031,800 shares by my calculation. What they don't tell you is that the shares were leveraged, or to put it plainly, the Dwarf used this thirty million as a deposit to borrow more money to buy even more shares, thinking their futile and reckless effort would halt the attempted take over by Ryanair. It didn’t, of course. They were left short, in more ways than one.
Ryanair wants, or rather, wanted to make a massive investment in Aer Lingus to have it thrive, with employment and futures for all. For reasons best known to itself, this is what IALPA is twisting itself inside out to avoid, ladies and gentlemen, even if they have to destroy Aer Lingus to do it. On present trends, they will achieve precisely that.
Their shares were purchased at an average of €2.80, and with shares last trading at 55 cent, they’re looking at losses of over 81% of their initial capital, plus ALL of the leveraged funds. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) and others, are holding de facto mortgages, secured by personal guarantee, over all contributory Aer Lingus pilots, and as an industrial bargaining chip, they now demand of the airline whose future they have sabotaged, to be saved from their own voluntary, hubristic stupidity and the consequences of a failed investment! Surely one for the history books, but wait! There's more. The Dwarf continues.....
Basic maths time. Government shareholding 25%, employees trust (ESOT) 18.5%, devotees of the Dwarf (DD) 4.5%. Grand total? Forty Eight Percent, which casts their curious and outrageous demand for an additional 4% into an entirely new light.
I think the exact opposite. I think the Dwarf thinks this is the best way to maintain his hose in the trough for the longest possible time before the inevitable happens. But wait.....
There's no better way to get the hair up among a group of legacy pilots than by fiddling with their pension fund. What a shame they hadn't taken responsibility for themselves like the rest of us do.
So much for the lies of IALPA and the no-neck polyester dwarf who runs it. Lets hear now from a transcript of conversations heard in Dáil Éireann (the Irish Parliament) in very recent days.
This from Enda Corneille, Aer Lingus' Director of Corporate Affairs.
He goes on.....
In summary then, the airline is over a barrel, facing certain death and in return the pilots want their Tailwind losses covered, an additional 4% in company stock given to them (stupidity premium, one presumes) and that their pensions are funded from outer space, the good fairy or the ghost of Michael Collins, because heaven knows their ain't no money in Aer Lingus for it.
More later, including the Dwarf's revealing testimony to parliament, verbatim.
The post above from milehighdriver is most illuminating. Naturally, it first needs to be de-dwarfed in order to determine the reality of what it tells us. Permit me to take this thankless task upon myself.
• Pilots have offered to take a 10% pay cut on the basis that the debt of the Tailwind Trust is made good.
Ryanair wants, or rather, wanted to make a massive investment in Aer Lingus to have it thrive, with employment and futures for all. For reasons best known to itself, this is what IALPA is twisting itself inside out to avoid, ladies and gentlemen, even if they have to destroy Aer Lingus to do it. On present trends, they will achieve precisely that.
Their shares were purchased at an average of €2.80, and with shares last trading at 55 cent, they’re looking at losses of over 81% of their initial capital, plus ALL of the leveraged funds. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) and others, are holding de facto mortgages, secured by personal guarantee, over all contributory Aer Lingus pilots, and as an industrial bargaining chip, they now demand of the airline whose future they have sabotaged, to be saved from their own voluntary, hubristic stupidity and the consequences of a failed investment! Surely one for the history books, but wait! There's more. The Dwarf continues.....
But they want to blame us when we don’t agree. You may know that IALPA’s pilots have already spent €30 million of our own money buying Aer Lingus shares to defend the company from hostile takeover attempts. As well as the €35 million plus per year offered to the company in cost savings, pilots also offered an extra reduction in variable pay of several million per year. In return we asked for additional equity in the company to assist in the defence of the company in the event of another hostile takeover attempt.
We think this is reasonable and in the best interests of all Aer Lingus staff.
There is one aspect of the current negotiations that management have not made you aware of – they have proposed that the pilots alone ‘shall shoulder the entire (pilots’ pension) scheme deficit’. At the last actuarial valuation (March 2009), this was estimated to be in the region of €147 million.
So much for the lies of IALPA and the no-neck polyester dwarf who runs it. Lets hear now from a transcript of conversations heard in Dáil Éireann (the Irish Parliament) in very recent days.
This from Enda Corneille, Aer Lingus' Director of Corporate Affairs.
That is the key issue. Our costs are too high. We have a duty to the plc to address all of these challenges to shareholders, employees and customers. The future is in all of our hands and we must embrace a new strategy. If we do not, we face a bleak future.
The new strategy is in two parts: the first is to do with reducing cost and the second with generating revenue. I will not dwell on the headlines; it has been pretty well reported that the industry is in turmoil. It is also a fact that airline demand correlates with GDP, and it is no surprise that given the turmoil in the consumer markets, aviation is not unaffected. IATA, which is the global body representing aviation, usually makes one forecast of outturn per year for all its members. For this year it made its first forecast in December 2008, stating that the global aviation business would lose €2.5 billion in 2009. It is now on its fourth forecast, under which the projected loss is €11 billion. The issue for Aer Lingus is that the gap between the fair yield we can generate per passenger and the cost of providing the seat is widening. This is something we must address.
More later, including the Dwarf's revealing testimony to parliament, verbatim.
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Leo as always your infatuation with Aer Lingus amuses me. 
You seem to dislike a certain someone called the 'dwarf'. Go on please tell, what's he done to you, after all you did start the thread 
Quite sad really.
You seem to dislike a certain someone called the 'dwarf'. Go on please tell, what's he done to you, after all you did start the thread Quite sad really.
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Enda Corneille, corporate affairs director at Aer Lingus, told The Times: “We are going through the process with the Civil Aviation Authority, which will give us the opportunity to reflag the airlines and fly them from the UK so that Dublin would become somewhere to fly to rather than from.”
He said that the move would allow pilots’ contracts to be changed in line with the terms under which its Gatwick-based pilots already operate. However, he emphasised that the process could take “a number of months”.
Irish carrier may quit Dublin for UK after pilots refuse pay cut - Times Online
No agreement with IALPA =
He said that the move would allow pilots’ contracts to be changed in line with the terms under which its Gatwick-based pilots already operate. However, he emphasised that the process could take “a number of months”.
Irish carrier may quit Dublin for UK after pilots refuse pay cut - Times Online
No agreement with IALPA =
self-inflicted extinction
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Aer Lingus Recruiting US Pilots
Aer Lingus are looking for US pilots:
http://www.airlinepilots.com/jobs/airline_pilot_first_officer/uk_airports/a330_first_officer_washington_dulles-9639.html?refid=apJOTW-pos1-id9639
http://www.airlinepilots.com/jobs/airline_pilot_first_officer/uk_airports/a330_first_officer_washington_dulles-9639.html?refid=apJOTW-pos1-id9639
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You know as pilots were supposed to be able to see the big picture here! Unlike Leo Hairy-Camel I won't get down to the mud slinging and name calling.
However, If I was to stick my own head up some-body else's hairy hole, then I'm sure I'd find it very difficult to see what's going on in the real world!
A few pointer's on your last post
Well you can debate the how's and why's, but so far two rejected attempts. Tailwind was never purchased as a financial investment. It's a mechanism to prevent the same fate that occurred when Buzz was taken over. Money well spent there me thinks...
I'll blame that statement, on the fact that you've had your head stuck up there too long. Cherry pick and then flog off those well equipped airbus..
Well thats because Ryanair don't provide one. Be-grudgery or what!
However, If I was to stick my own head up some-body else's hairy hole, then I'm sure I'd find it very difficult to see what's going on in the real world!
A few pointer's on your last post
thinking their futile and reckless effort would halt the attempted take over by Ryanair. It didn’t, of course.
Ryanair wants, or rather, wanted to make a massive investment in Aer Lingus to have it thrive, with employment and futures for all
There's no better way to get the hair up among a group of legacy pilots than by fiddling with their pension fund. What a shame they hadn't taken responsibility for themselves like the rest of us do.
Last edited by milehighdriver; 3rd Dec 2009 at 14:04.
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"A dog pisses on the lampost the same way every day so no chance with Herr Mueller of doing anything different. "
Sometimes they get electrocuted and can never do it again.
Sometimes they get electrocuted and can never do it again.
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Just my two cents worth. First I'd like to say that it's a tragedy that yet again one of our own in the industry is facing these kind of difficulties. In our industry, if it's going crap at one place, trouble can't be too far away for us. However, at some point people will just have to man up to the realities of the world and act and not just talk.
If I would personally have the choice of a career switch (i.e. bankrupcy) or let my workplace be degraded beyond any reaonable measure by the likes of Ryanair, I would surely choose to do something else. I agree as much as anyone else that a business has to be profitable for it to have a right to exist. Therefore all concerned in the company and their livelyhoods depending on that institution should consider a little solidarity and taking pay-cuts to rescue it. It does not warrant one set of rules for employee group x in comparison to a different set of rules to employee group y. It seems to me that IALPA is considering just that. There are ways to twist and turn about pension and compensation for buying stock, but personally I do not find it appropriate. No investor gets a refund if they lose money, so neither should they whether they are employees or not. It's just a shame that they are the only ones that initially invested the amount. Protecting other peoples interests from a hostile takeover with their own money, but that is a choice and risk they took.
If there are cuts, temporary or permanent, of any form -- everyone must bear responsibility in equal measure. From management on down. No preferential treatment for any group of employees. Still, any outcome is preferential to a Ryanair takeover from where I stand. If the industry standard is reduced to that (which thankfully it is not, albeit just yet) I really doubt alot of us would want to stick around.
But then again, in the world of the hairy camel everyone should be paying to do a job out of their own pockets so I guess I'm just from another planet.
If I would personally have the choice of a career switch (i.e. bankrupcy) or let my workplace be degraded beyond any reaonable measure by the likes of Ryanair, I would surely choose to do something else. I agree as much as anyone else that a business has to be profitable for it to have a right to exist. Therefore all concerned in the company and their livelyhoods depending on that institution should consider a little solidarity and taking pay-cuts to rescue it. It does not warrant one set of rules for employee group x in comparison to a different set of rules to employee group y. It seems to me that IALPA is considering just that. There are ways to twist and turn about pension and compensation for buying stock, but personally I do not find it appropriate. No investor gets a refund if they lose money, so neither should they whether they are employees or not. It's just a shame that they are the only ones that initially invested the amount. Protecting other peoples interests from a hostile takeover with their own money, but that is a choice and risk they took.
If there are cuts, temporary or permanent, of any form -- everyone must bear responsibility in equal measure. From management on down. No preferential treatment for any group of employees. Still, any outcome is preferential to a Ryanair takeover from where I stand. If the industry standard is reduced to that (which thankfully it is not, albeit just yet) I really doubt alot of us would want to stick around.
But then again, in the world of the hairy camel everyone should be paying to do a job out of their own pockets so I guess I'm just from another planet.
Post 139
As one who nowadays only lurks on R & N, I have to say that post 139 is not the most articulate of arguments in this discussion.
Get back to the basic debate - can Legacy carriers in Europe survive?
In my view the Economics are against them. No "temporary" savings will work.
Get back to the basic debate - can Legacy carriers in Europe survive?
In my view the Economics are against them. No "temporary" savings will work.
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Aer Lingus €6,000hr, Ryanscare €166.67hr.............................
erm, let me think who i´d like to work for. Thanks Leo hairy Camel for that info.
erm, let me think who i´d like to work for. Thanks Leo hairy Camel for that info.
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That's as may be, Postman23, but calling them that tends to make them cross, in my experience. Good luck, though. Nice to see the old misogyny still in common use in today's modern age.
Indeed we can, milehighdriver, but lets not delude ourselves. Your 4.5% is not now, nor ever was, sufficient to block anything more substantial than your Great Aunt Trudy's bowel movements. The deal was eventually scuppered, as you well know, by the recently replaced EU Competition Commissioner. You're right in that two attempts have failed, though. They certainly have, and in the days to come you might care to explain to our fellow Irishmen, customers, shareholders, investors and stake holders in Aer Lingus why you remain committed to the ridiculous notion that destruction is the objective when the complete opposite is the truth?
Thanks to Aer Lingus' inability to compete, there are no cherries, milehighdriver. I'm not sure of how the world looks from the rare air of Howth and Mallahide or wherever it is you have your palace by the sea, but in the real world, there IS no market for airbus narrowbodies, well-equiped or otherwise. Ask Easyjet. In fact ask anyone not quite so deaf, blind, dumb and stupid as IALPA. No, milehighdriver, your Airbuses would have been used by us for what they're intended. Running a wildly successful airline. Grace and good breeding prevent me from pointing out that this is something that we're quite good at whereas you...well, you get the picture.
How do I get this thought through your Dwarf-addled skulls, which seem to grow thicker by the hour? Ryanair wanted to save Aer Lingus, to expand it, and offered cast iron guarantees about employment, The glorious West, the mad hatter's tea party you like to call your pension fund, and even those delicious 50 slots pairs at LHR. Guaranteed, in writing, and still you stood in the way. You don't often find that sort of commitment to failure in this day and age.
I've observed epileptics sharing a bowl of noodles who display more grace and committment to their futures than IALPA demonstrates over Aer Lingus. People wonder why I'm so viscerally anti-union, well here you have it in nutshell, folks. IALPA are holding their own airline hostage, demanding to be reimbursed for something approaching €80 million in funds lost on the stockmarket. The truly great comedy moment, though, the great 'Tah-Dah' in all this insane mélange of hubris, comes from knowing they also want another 4% stock given to them for the part they played in saving their airline from the jaws of certain rescue. Rather like burning your lifeboats just as the famous green ship goes down, very fast by the stern. When the dust settles on all this, your antics will have sealed the coffin on pilot unions once and for all, so I suppose I should thank you. Naught but a footnote in future classrooms of Hubris 101.
In the meantime, though, you evidently think striking in the runup to Christmas will save your bacon again, like so often in the past. You are wrong. Unless you come to your senses, and soon too, Aer Lingus will be a little more than a smudge on the pages of Irish history. I wonder how the Irish people will feel knowing the reason Aer Lingus is no more, boils down to 5 little letters.
I.A.L.P.A.
Well you can debate the how's and why's, but so far two rejected attempts.
Cherry pick and then flog off those well equipped airbus.
How do I get this thought through your Dwarf-addled skulls, which seem to grow thicker by the hour? Ryanair wanted to save Aer Lingus, to expand it, and offered cast iron guarantees about employment, The glorious West, the mad hatter's tea party you like to call your pension fund, and even those delicious 50 slots pairs at LHR. Guaranteed, in writing, and still you stood in the way. You don't often find that sort of commitment to failure in this day and age.
I've observed epileptics sharing a bowl of noodles who display more grace and committment to their futures than IALPA demonstrates over Aer Lingus. People wonder why I'm so viscerally anti-union, well here you have it in nutshell, folks. IALPA are holding their own airline hostage, demanding to be reimbursed for something approaching €80 million in funds lost on the stockmarket. The truly great comedy moment, though, the great 'Tah-Dah' in all this insane mélange of hubris, comes from knowing they also want another 4% stock given to them for the part they played in saving their airline from the jaws of certain rescue. Rather like burning your lifeboats just as the famous green ship goes down, very fast by the stern. When the dust settles on all this, your antics will have sealed the coffin on pilot unions once and for all, so I suppose I should thank you. Naught but a footnote in future classrooms of Hubris 101.
In the meantime, though, you evidently think striking in the runup to Christmas will save your bacon again, like so often in the past. You are wrong. Unless you come to your senses, and soon too, Aer Lingus will be a little more than a smudge on the pages of Irish history. I wonder how the Irish people will feel knowing the reason Aer Lingus is no more, boils down to 5 little letters.
I.A.L.P.A.
Last edited by Leo Hairy-Camel; 3rd Dec 2009 at 17:52.
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Your 4.5% is not now, nor ever was, sufficient to block anything more substantial than your Great Aunt Trudy's bowel movements.
Thanks to Aer Lingus' inability to compete, there are no cherries,
milehighdriver. I'm not sure of how the world looks from the rare air of Howth and Mallahide or wherever it is you have your palace by the sea,
Ryanair wanted to save Aer Lingus, to expand it, and offered cast iron guarantees about employment, the west, the mad hatter's tea party aka your pension fund, and even those delicious 50 slots pairs at LHR. Guaranteed, in writing. As still you stood in the way.
People wonder why I'm so viscerally anti-union, well here you have it in nutshell, folks. IALPA are holding their own airline hostage, demanding to be reimbursed for something approaching €80 million in funds lost on the stockmarket.
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i note the talks have collapsed.....all sorts of conspiracy beliefs being aired (a) the company from day one had zero intention in engaging the unions but had to be seen to be going through the process before they pulled the pin and (b) Michaels ex hench man being able to deliver the company on a silver platter to him Jan 29th 2010.
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Leo let it fail, clean house sometimes its the best way. A new start without the ialpa clowns. Leave them out at the roundabout with the mileholediver. Dont take up time and resources dealing with these clowns when ryanair has bigger fish to fry. Finally once and for all like a sick horse put them out of their misery . The irish tax payer is sick of aerlingus over paid peacock pilots holding us to ransome.Tailwind? more like tailspin down the toilet with everybody's cash.
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Leo
You might like to add that the slots do not "belong" to Aer Lingus: they in fact, belong, to ACL, ergo they have no value.
Incidentally, how much value do they have to anyone when LHR 3rd runway is rejected and changes are imposed to cut emissions at LHR
You might like to add that the slots do not "belong" to Aer Lingus: they in fact, belong, to ACL, ergo they have no value.
Incidentally, how much value do they have to anyone when LHR 3rd runway is rejected and changes are imposed to cut emissions at LHR
Last edited by The Real Slim Shady; 3rd Dec 2009 at 21:38. Reason: spelling 101
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C220
You might want to have a quick look at the Aer Lingus company profile before you make comment. They're a private company now, in fact, they have been for some time.
Do you have newspapers where you are?
You might want to have a quick look at the Aer Lingus company profile before you make comment. They're a private company now, in fact, they have been for some time.
Do you have newspapers where you are?