Aer Lingus to Leave Dublin Forever.
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I love the fact that some people in here are saying the story isn't credible as is from a student obviously learning journalism, and questioning the stats when
1) This is a forum called "RUMOUR & News"
2) she actually gave her name to the story and being questioned by people who are posting anonymously
I am not saying I agree with people who post stories that only stir things up - I'm not, have seen too many of them myself and journalists often annoy me anyway
I'm just saying that you have to put it in context of the environment where it's being discussed - in a rumour forum! (and in case anyone says it's also a news forum, that is what the student posted).
On the subject however, I don't believe an airline should move from the country - Aer Lingus is the Irish flag carrier, it should be based in Ireland.
I personally have the same thought about national football managers, that they should only be managed by nationals just like the players! But I digress.
1) This is a forum called "RUMOUR & News"
2) she actually gave her name to the story and being questioned by people who are posting anonymously
I am not saying I agree with people who post stories that only stir things up - I'm not, have seen too many of them myself and journalists often annoy me anyway
I'm just saying that you have to put it in context of the environment where it's being discussed - in a rumour forum! (and in case anyone says it's also a news forum, that is what the student posted).
On the subject however, I don't believe an airline should move from the country - Aer Lingus is the Irish flag carrier, it should be based in Ireland.
I personally have the same thought about national football managers, that they should only be managed by nationals just like the players! But I digress.
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Leo Hairy-Camel is a semi-official mouthpiece of Ryanair. There's a clue in the name - it's an anagram - go figure.
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As has been widely reported in the press, Aer Lingus is in the process of making an application to the UK CAA for an AOC.
This AOC will enable Aer Lingus to expand it's route network out of the Gatwick and Belfast bases to destinations outside the EU such as Russia and Turkey etc.
Simply put, Aer Lingus has UK bases from which it can't operate on routes it would like to unless it gets a UK AOC.
Never mind the Aer Lingus Ryanair pilot cost comparison, it is reported that the cost of Aerlingus' UK pilot and cabin crew members based at Belfast and Gatwick is 50% of the cost of crews based in Ireland.
Now there is the crux of any cost-benefit analysis.
This AOC will enable Aer Lingus to expand it's route network out of the Gatwick and Belfast bases to destinations outside the EU such as Russia and Turkey etc.
Simply put, Aer Lingus has UK bases from which it can't operate on routes it would like to unless it gets a UK AOC.
Never mind the Aer Lingus Ryanair pilot cost comparison, it is reported that the cost of Aerlingus' UK pilot and cabin crew members based at Belfast and Gatwick is 50% of the cost of crews based in Ireland.
Now there is the crux of any cost-benefit analysis.
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A group of 66 Aer Lingus pilots are earning almost €20m a year, an average of €300,000 each in salaries and financial perks. They are also entitled to a “gold-plated” pension fund, to which the company is contributing 21% of salary each year.
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Jeez Autobrake, did you you get out of bed on the wrong side or did you have a baseball bat - sans lubricant - inserted?
All Leo did was report on a piece of "rumour" and / or "news": what's with jumping down his throat?
And SSK....are you that naive?
All Leo did was report on a piece of "rumour" and / or "news": what's with jumping down his throat?
And SSK....are you that naive?
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"If you always do what you always did you always get what you always got"
Aer Lingus will not and cannot survive the current climate as it stands. The management must come up with fresh ideas on how to survive. The UK AOC is one option open to them in order to generate revenue. The premise that this means they would pull all operations from Ireland is nonsense.
That they will use this option as a stick in negotiations with unions is not. If they can reduce the cost base by moving more of the operation to the UK they will.
The short haul market (EU) they can currently compete on from the UK but what are they offering that is different to all the others - very little. Therefore to build on pax numbers looking long haul is a viable opportunity from the UK. They have the current infrastructure and experience in this market.
Good luck to them as I support the idea of creating viable employment. Viable employment can only exist within a viable company. If the existing staff need to look at reductions to their current package then so be it. Better to have X - 10% then no job. Unfortunately this is never seen until it is too late.
There are other options open to them and I hope someone is thinking outside the box and not putting all the eggs in this basket.
Aer Lingus will not and cannot survive the current climate as it stands. The management must come up with fresh ideas on how to survive. The UK AOC is one option open to them in order to generate revenue. The premise that this means they would pull all operations from Ireland is nonsense.
That they will use this option as a stick in negotiations with unions is not. If they can reduce the cost base by moving more of the operation to the UK they will.
The short haul market (EU) they can currently compete on from the UK but what are they offering that is different to all the others - very little. Therefore to build on pax numbers looking long haul is a viable opportunity from the UK. They have the current infrastructure and experience in this market.
Good luck to them as I support the idea of creating viable employment. Viable employment can only exist within a viable company. If the existing staff need to look at reductions to their current package then so be it. Better to have X - 10% then no job. Unfortunately this is never seen until it is too late.
There are other options open to them and I hope someone is thinking outside the box and not putting all the eggs in this basket.
To my nose, this has a whiff of "bargaining chip" about it - a ploy to get more concessions (tax & more) out of Leinster House. Still, if EI was to leave Dublin, why the UK? I'd think Amsterdam would be a better idea, with its favourable tax regime. Hey, it worked for U2 ... 
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TRSS - no of course I'm not that naive, for God's sake. But it's highly probable that he has official blessing and that his posts are vetted by the corporate media machine.
FR most certainly has a 'communications strategy' and nowadays these include blogs, tweets, bulletin boards and the like.
Hey - I might be doing the same thing.
FR most certainly has a 'communications strategy' and nowadays these include blogs, tweets, bulletin boards and the like.
Hey - I might be doing the same thing.
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Ah, Europe...
How cool being european!
It has to be, because being european hasn't brought us any benefits.
Europe is great, yeah... for the big fishes! now they can squeeze us so easily. Borders were not so bad, after all. Inside them rules had sense and we were protected. Now they are gone, we are in the open.
We (not only the pilots but all the workers in Europe) are like a herd of zebras in a zoo where all the fences had suddenly gone down. To the left, the lions, to the right, the tigers, in front leopards and behind the bears.
But it is cool being european, isn't it?
How cool being european!
It has to be, because being european hasn't brought us any benefits.
Europe is great, yeah... for the big fishes! now they can squeeze us so easily. Borders were not so bad, after all. Inside them rules had sense and we were protected. Now they are gone, we are in the open.
We (not only the pilots but all the workers in Europe) are like a herd of zebras in a zoo where all the fences had suddenly gone down. To the left, the lions, to the right, the tigers, in front leopards and behind the bears.
But it is cool being european, isn't it?
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I don't think the EI board would approve of the airlines HQ moving to the UK. By obtaining the UK AOC this will enable EI to serve new markets beyond Europe from the UK. Obviously the Airline will have lower costs in its UK subsidiary. This move could involve a possible long haul JV with another carrier too you never know. EI are possibly looking at developing a 3rd UK base (possibly Man) once they get through the current cost cutting. By obtaining the UK AOC they are reducing their dependence on the Irish market and growing the Airline which is needed for EI to be successful in the long run. Leo is just stirring up his usual stuff.
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Dublin is the epicentre of EI's problems. Having operated out of the airport for the last year or so, you can get a feel for the extent of their hurt.
For one, passengers numbers have completely bottomed out. Whether it be business, leisure, discretionary travel, tourism; label it as you wish. Its all declined considerably. It has kicked both EI and FR in the goolies. They are both competing for scraps to the point that it seems that each and every minute one is launching some kind of revenue generating sale.
DUB isn't a cheap place to operate from. I don't see the DAA striving to drive down costs for its customers, especially with the vastly overbudgeted hulk of glass and steel that is T2 opening next year. For one they want to see ADP increased due to the nature of their own problems. Each and every operater based at the airport has called for it to be dropped.
As stated, EI's place in the longhaul market has tumbled significantly. It competes with American, US Airways, Continental and Delta on its routes to NYC, Chicago and Boston. Washington has been cut for the winter and I think LAX is gone. Everything out of SNN is understandably under constant review, however its operations from this airport are a constant political hotbed.
Staff costs are high and productivity is crap. In 2008, the average staff cost was 82000e. This related to 2600 passengers handled per staff member. Ryanair showed a 50000e with 9700 passengers handled. I have heard rumours of baggage handing supervisors, largely because of their time in service, on close to 100K a year. EI is well above industry levels of pay for cabin crew, once again due to length of service and final salary pension benefits. I see these guys park up at DUB in their BMW and Mercedes coupes. They totally outpass the 'typical age' that I or any other would consider applicable to cc. Why leave a job like that?
The airline is massively unionised at all levels. Implemeting any chage won't be without it's difficuties. Bringing in the UK AOC will cause a massive rift, regardless of how the management present the reasons for it. Nuff said on that front I think.
Above all I wish the guys at EI well. I have said it before, the airline has an absolutely massive brand appeal. But it has to get its costs under control. I'm positive that people realise that if it doesn't its position at DUB is a dead duck!
For one, passengers numbers have completely bottomed out. Whether it be business, leisure, discretionary travel, tourism; label it as you wish. Its all declined considerably. It has kicked both EI and FR in the goolies. They are both competing for scraps to the point that it seems that each and every minute one is launching some kind of revenue generating sale.
DUB isn't a cheap place to operate from. I don't see the DAA striving to drive down costs for its customers, especially with the vastly overbudgeted hulk of glass and steel that is T2 opening next year. For one they want to see ADP increased due to the nature of their own problems. Each and every operater based at the airport has called for it to be dropped.
As stated, EI's place in the longhaul market has tumbled significantly. It competes with American, US Airways, Continental and Delta on its routes to NYC, Chicago and Boston. Washington has been cut for the winter and I think LAX is gone. Everything out of SNN is understandably under constant review, however its operations from this airport are a constant political hotbed.
Staff costs are high and productivity is crap. In 2008, the average staff cost was 82000e. This related to 2600 passengers handled per staff member. Ryanair showed a 50000e with 9700 passengers handled. I have heard rumours of baggage handing supervisors, largely because of their time in service, on close to 100K a year. EI is well above industry levels of pay for cabin crew, once again due to length of service and final salary pension benefits. I see these guys park up at DUB in their BMW and Mercedes coupes. They totally outpass the 'typical age' that I or any other would consider applicable to cc. Why leave a job like that?
The airline is massively unionised at all levels. Implemeting any chage won't be without it's difficuties. Bringing in the UK AOC will cause a massive rift, regardless of how the management present the reasons for it. Nuff said on that front I think.
Above all I wish the guys at EI well. I have said it before, the airline has an absolutely massive brand appeal. But it has to get its costs under control. I'm positive that people realise that if it doesn't its position at DUB is a dead duck!
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The Irish unions have a tradition of hanging on to their historic high salaries and perks in the fond belief the government will bail them out forever. No longer the case, as was proved at TEAM Aer Lingus, and will be the case at EIN as it was at SWR and SAB, if they don't wake up and smell the coffee. Unless EIN can get its costs down it will follow them into history and to a large extent that means staff costs, one way or another.
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Perhaps a solution would be for FR to takeover EI completely and integrate the short haul operation into the FR model whilst retaining, and expanding the long haul ops, as a discrete premium brand.
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Not when the Irish Government owns a quarter of the company with an election due by 2012 at the latest, and the Finance Minister has just been voted the worst in €urope.
Intractable unions believe even their most unreasonable demands will be met by a compliant and passive Taoiseach, as was ever thus. Meanwhile, the new broom seeks order with a Prussian efficiency, gloriously oblivious to the fact that getting Irish Unions to point in the same direction is like trying to herd cats. Scheisse!
Meanwhile, in a fact not lost on many and various as yet unseen hands, Aer Lingus is 4th on the Heathrow totem pole when it comes to slot pairs after Golden Balls, The Red Lady, and the Luftwaffe's new English Patient. These are worth, depending on time of day and terminal space availability, between one and forty million pounds each. That makes AERL, in slot terms alone, worth somewhere between fifty million and two billion quid. In your individual calculus, do bear in mind that AERL slots are premium time slots, lavishly spread throughout morning and evening peak hours, so one presumes a valuation toward the upper end of that range. Yummy.
Here's a thought Christoph, meine Liebe, rather than bend over and watch IALPA's latest and increasingly bizarre attempt at autoerotic asphyxia, why not use those lovely 50 slots pairs a bit more creatively? Lovely, green A330's, all big and full out of Heathrow across the pond sounds very nice to me. May as well go down fighting, oder?
Intractable unions believe even their most unreasonable demands will be met by a compliant and passive Taoiseach, as was ever thus. Meanwhile, the new broom seeks order with a Prussian efficiency, gloriously oblivious to the fact that getting Irish Unions to point in the same direction is like trying to herd cats. Scheisse!
Meanwhile, in a fact not lost on many and various as yet unseen hands, Aer Lingus is 4th on the Heathrow totem pole when it comes to slot pairs after Golden Balls, The Red Lady, and the Luftwaffe's new English Patient. These are worth, depending on time of day and terminal space availability, between one and forty million pounds each. That makes AERL, in slot terms alone, worth somewhere between fifty million and two billion quid. In your individual calculus, do bear in mind that AERL slots are premium time slots, lavishly spread throughout morning and evening peak hours, so one presumes a valuation toward the upper end of that range. Yummy.
Here's a thought Christoph, meine Liebe, rather than bend over and watch IALPA's latest and increasingly bizarre attempt at autoerotic asphyxia, why not use those lovely 50 slots pairs a bit more creatively? Lovely, green A330's, all big and full out of Heathrow across the pond sounds very nice to me. May as well go down fighting, oder?
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IALPA and IFALPA
Not a snowballs chance in hell that ANY pilot group would refuse to fly their own aircraft on Aer Lingus flights in this age of survival. To start with, in the UK it would be illegal, leaving BALPA and any of the pilots who refuse the work open to personal litigation ( courtesy of Maggie Thatchers laws introduced during the Miners strike on Secondary Picketing) . Similarly, when the chips are down ( as they re just about everywhere), it's every man for himself.
Sad...but true!
Sad...but true!
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I must say i never quite figured out why mol and ruinair wanted to buy AL. Lets face it, the writting has been on the wall for a long time at the green machine. Why bother buying it when chances are its going to do what alot of national carriers seem to do.....go bust.
No one likes to see all these AL crews and staff out of work but its hardly a surprise is it.
Excuse my ignorance but in the event of a RYR takeover what on earth would MOL do with a load of heathrow slots.it hardly fits in with your business model leo camel, now does it.
As for this idea that the Aer lingus brand is valuable, i fail to see how?
Most people associate EI as being a full service carrier outside of the emerald isle and thats hardly ideal when trying to relaunch in the UK, in EZYs home ground. Then again since EI is a home for incompetent civil servants.....all too little too late i fear.
PS Congrats on the lisbon treaty vote leo....you must be thrilled
No one likes to see all these AL crews and staff out of work but its hardly a surprise is it.
Excuse my ignorance but in the event of a RYR takeover what on earth would MOL do with a load of heathrow slots.it hardly fits in with your business model leo camel, now does it.
As for this idea that the Aer lingus brand is valuable, i fail to see how?
Most people associate EI as being a full service carrier outside of the emerald isle and thats hardly ideal when trying to relaunch in the UK, in EZYs home ground. Then again since EI is a home for incompetent civil servants.....all too little too late i fear.
PS Congrats on the lisbon treaty vote leo....you must be thrilled
Last edited by blackred1443; 25th Nov 2009 at 19:14.
As for this idea that the Aer lingus brand is valuabe i fail to seem how?
Most people associate EI as a full service carrier out of the emerald isle and thats hardly ideal when trying to relaunch in the UK, in EZYs home ground. Then again since EI is a home for incompetent civil servants.....all too little too late i fear.
Most people associate EI as a full service carrier out of the emerald isle and thats hardly ideal when trying to relaunch in the UK, in EZYs home ground. Then again since EI is a home for incompetent civil servants.....all too little too late i fear.
As far as I'm concerned, Air Lingus could merge with British Airways at a corporate level, but keep the callsigns and the green paint. However, there would be massive political opposition to that, in a country where anti-Englishness is a semi-official government policy. They'd hand EI over to Ryanair first, just to keep it "Irish".
