BA & Iberia to merge
The last cull (12 months ago) gave approx 3 weeks basic pay for every year's service.
Please note the term "BASIC PAY". It's a lot less than salary for many BA staff.
One individual refused the 'voluntary' redundancy package and had his employment terminated on the grounds of redundancy at the statutary rate (approx 1 week's pay/years service).
That went to tribunal. He got the voluntary package back and took it.
Please note the term "BASIC PAY". It's a lot less than salary for many BA staff.
One individual refused the 'voluntary' redundancy package and had his employment terminated on the grounds of redundancy at the statutary rate (approx 1 week's pay/years service).
That went to tribunal. He got the voluntary package back and took it.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: following the yellow brick road
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guarantee that the average BA worker is paid a hell of a lot more than his/her IB counterpart. I know that this is very true in relation to ground and engineering staff.
I imagine there is more or less parity among the flight crews of both companies (within reason!
)
Brgds
SB03
I imagine there is more or less parity among the flight crews of both companies (within reason!
) Brgds
SB03
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: LHR
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Severance deals were based on 3 weeks basic salary for every year worked up to 25 years, i.e. capped at 75 weeks. This time last year, the management cull was taking place and heavy hints were dropped about this being the "last good deal".
More VR offers were made at this level earlier this year but now the current deal looks to be 2 weeks basic salary for every year worked up to 26 years, i.e. capped at 52 weeks.
More VR offers were made at this level earlier this year but now the current deal looks to be 2 weeks basic salary for every year worked up to 26 years, i.e. capped at 52 weeks.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: United kingdom
Age: 65
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Customer view - (hope you Pilots dont mind)
I may not have worked in Airline management but I do understand sales and marketing and what it is like to be a customer. Putting it in simplistic terms there are two types of businesses. Firstly there is The Market Driven business which takes time to understand what the market wants to buy and secondly there is The Product Driven business that simply pushes products on the blind assumption that there are actually plenty of customers out there happy to buy their offering . It doesn’t take too much to work out which type is likely to be the more successful.
So for the last few years I have watched with interest as BA struggles to find its niche and I find it hard to understand how constant retreat, ( Harvest Heathrow) is going to be a success or how the tie up with Iberia takes into consideration the needs of the customer. Shareholders are being shown the possibility of millions of anticipated savings to be derived from the integration of business processes and routes but have either the management of Iberia or BA stopped to ask what positive impact this will have on the customer. From what I have read the so called benefit to me being regionally based in the UK is that I will only need one ticket and that my bags will be conveniently interlined as I take my three flights en route to Rio (ie Manchester – Heathrow-Madrid-Rio). In addition I will be allowed to use Iberia’s lounge in Madrid. So that’s all right then Mr Shareholder, the passengers will be nicely looked after won’t they. Of course the answer is no. BA gets to save money by integrating routes and pushing passengers through Madrid but sadly for them I, like many other customers have no intention of adding an extra stop on the journey. I accept that there is probably insufficient business to justify an airline flying direct from Manchester to Rio so I will put up with having to change flights at LHR but I am damned if I am going to take an extra layover just to provide some extra gravy to you Mr Shareholder. So which airline flies direct from Heathrow, perhaps its time to shop around and then again, why do I have to use LHR as my hub, surely Amsterdam and Paris are just as convenient from Manchester as well as arguably offering a better airport experience.
I accept that I do not have anything more than anecdotal evidence but I know plenty of people in the Northwest of England and Scotland who fly long haul and where as ten years ago most of them would be using BA the situation now is that the airlines they fly are Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, American, Continental, Delta and US Air, KLM/Air France and even Lufthansa.
Perhaps there are gains to be made by cutting routes, services and staff levels but they don’t seem to be making a positive impact on BAs bottom line. Perhaps it’s time for BA to stop pulling back on the stick and get the nose down if they are ever going to recover from the current spin!
So for the last few years I have watched with interest as BA struggles to find its niche and I find it hard to understand how constant retreat, ( Harvest Heathrow) is going to be a success or how the tie up with Iberia takes into consideration the needs of the customer. Shareholders are being shown the possibility of millions of anticipated savings to be derived from the integration of business processes and routes but have either the management of Iberia or BA stopped to ask what positive impact this will have on the customer. From what I have read the so called benefit to me being regionally based in the UK is that I will only need one ticket and that my bags will be conveniently interlined as I take my three flights en route to Rio (ie Manchester – Heathrow-Madrid-Rio). In addition I will be allowed to use Iberia’s lounge in Madrid. So that’s all right then Mr Shareholder, the passengers will be nicely looked after won’t they. Of course the answer is no. BA gets to save money by integrating routes and pushing passengers through Madrid but sadly for them I, like many other customers have no intention of adding an extra stop on the journey. I accept that there is probably insufficient business to justify an airline flying direct from Manchester to Rio so I will put up with having to change flights at LHR but I am damned if I am going to take an extra layover just to provide some extra gravy to you Mr Shareholder. So which airline flies direct from Heathrow, perhaps its time to shop around and then again, why do I have to use LHR as my hub, surely Amsterdam and Paris are just as convenient from Manchester as well as arguably offering a better airport experience.
I accept that I do not have anything more than anecdotal evidence but I know plenty of people in the Northwest of England and Scotland who fly long haul and where as ten years ago most of them would be using BA the situation now is that the airlines they fly are Emirates, Qatar, Etihad, American, Continental, Delta and US Air, KLM/Air France and even Lufthansa.
Perhaps there are gains to be made by cutting routes, services and staff levels but they don’t seem to be making a positive impact on BAs bottom line. Perhaps it’s time for BA to stop pulling back on the stick and get the nose down if they are ever going to recover from the current spin!
Just heard that Price Waterhouse have been asked to comment on the effect a merger will have on pensions, and that there has been a call for the resignation of Roger Maynard, Chairman of the pension Trustees, who was ALSO the person chosen by BA to lead their merger negotiations !!
The words, Denmark, and State and Rotten come to mind.
I wonder why.
ExSp33db1rd - present cynic.
The words, Denmark, and State and Rotten come to mind.
I wonder why.
ExSp33db1rd - present cynic.
Controversial, moi?
...and that there has been a call for the resignation of Roger Maynard, Chairman of the pension Trustees, who was ALSO the person chosen by BA to lead their merger negotiations !!
Having heard the very erudite and effective pilot representative pension trustee (who is also a BALPA rep.) respond to the call for Roger Maynard to resign saying that he has every confidence in the man's honour and integrity then that is good enough for me.
He also went on to point out that there is no obvious replacement and to be careful what we wish for.
It is always so easy to shoot from the hip and make wild accusations which appeal to the uninformed but I for one trust the trustees to do what is right and correct for the fund. I trust the judgement of the pilot trustee who was voted on to the board to represent the interests of the pilots.
Edited for grammar!
Last edited by M.Mouse; 19th Nov 2009 at 09:36.
.........has no integrity
Still a cynic.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 19th Nov 2009 at 05:50.
Guest
Posts: n/a
BA have quite a track record at Manchester for doing things that ultimately harm themselves.
Used to be a QuaintArs B747 that popped up and back to LHR that allowed northwest VFR pax to start as they meant to go on. When BA and QF joined forces guess what? Yup, the 747 got pulled and you went on the Shuttle.
Shrank the market by 30%
The Islamabad service was a similar story. Ram jam full every rotation but pulled 'to improve the quality of service to northwest passengers'
For south America, I'd go west to say NY or PHL and on from there, though KL AF prices in Business class are quire keen at present.
Sir George Cayley
Used to be a QuaintArs B747 that popped up and back to LHR that allowed northwest VFR pax to start as they meant to go on. When BA and QF joined forces guess what? Yup, the 747 got pulled and you went on the Shuttle.
Shrank the market by 30%
The Islamabad service was a similar story. Ram jam full every rotation but pulled 'to improve the quality of service to northwest passengers'
For south America, I'd go west to say NY or PHL and on from there, though KL AF prices in Business class are quire keen at present.
Sir George Cayley
Join Date: May 2007
Location: cheshire
Age: 67
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From another pax perspective, I feel that they need to get the customer service to improve for both airlines. I have always have had a love/hate relationship with BA because when they are good, They are very good. Unfortunately on the flip side, I have had many poor trips, some even on Business Class. Unfortunately you tend to remember the negatives more than the positives. Unfortunately Iberia long-haul are the pits. After 1 hour of a flight, the cabin crew are absent until landing. Food is a hit or a miss, not just on quality, but whether you get any at all!, even on 12 hour flights.
I am also a regional pax, and I am amazed anyone routes MAN/LHR/MAD/Any S.A. Destination. It appears madness. 4 flights when 2 will do. I will fly LPL/MAD on EZY and IB from there, (although I am looking at alternatives to IB). This routing, despite booking in luggage again, is a lot less hassle and I can chill out in the lounge if connection time permits. Another positive is that you avoid the long haul tax this way. However, I put MAD in the same category as LHR in trying to avoid. Both have good elements but can be a nightmare at times. The new terminal at MAD is the only one I know where you have to catch a train from one part of the terminal to another. Its caught many pax out, including myself.
I'm hoping that the merger will bring about the best bits of both airlines, and I certainly hope that that everyone employed will keep their jobs, particularly in these uncertain times. I might even be tempted to use BA again on some flights, rather than the odd associated flight in the last few years such as GLA-Stornoway and CPT-Port Elizabeth, hardly mainstream.
I am also a regional pax, and I am amazed anyone routes MAN/LHR/MAD/Any S.A. Destination. It appears madness. 4 flights when 2 will do. I will fly LPL/MAD on EZY and IB from there, (although I am looking at alternatives to IB). This routing, despite booking in luggage again, is a lot less hassle and I can chill out in the lounge if connection time permits. Another positive is that you avoid the long haul tax this way. However, I put MAD in the same category as LHR in trying to avoid. Both have good elements but can be a nightmare at times. The new terminal at MAD is the only one I know where you have to catch a train from one part of the terminal to another. Its caught many pax out, including myself.
I'm hoping that the merger will bring about the best bits of both airlines, and I certainly hope that that everyone employed will keep their jobs, particularly in these uncertain times. I might even be tempted to use BA again on some flights, rather than the odd associated flight in the last few years such as GLA-Stornoway and CPT-Port Elizabeth, hardly mainstream.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Spain
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From another pax perspective, I feel that they need to get the customer service to improve for both airlines. I have always have had a love/hate relationship with BA because when they are good, They are very good. Unfortunately on the flip side, I have had many poor trips, some even on Business Class. Unfortunately you tend to remember the negatives more than the positives. Unfortunately Iberia long-haul are the pits. After 1 hour of a flight, the cabin crew are absent until landing. Food is a hit or a miss, not just on quality, but whether you get any at all!, even on 12 hour flights.
I am also a regional pax, and I am amazed anyone routes MAN/LHR/MAD/Any S.A. Destination. It appears madness. 4 flights when 2 will do. I will fly LPL/MAD on EZY and IB from there, (although I am looking at alternatives to IB). This routing, despite booking in luggage again, is a lot less hassle and I can chill out in the lounge if connection time permits. Another positive is that you avoid the long haul tax this way. However, I put MAD in the same category as LHR in trying to avoid. Both have good elements but can be a nightmare at times. The new terminal at MAD is the only one I know where you have to catch a train from one part of the terminal to another. Its caught many pax out, including myself.
I'm hoping that the merger will bring about the best bits of both airlines, and I certainly hope that that everyone employed will keep their jobs, particularly in these uncertain times. I might even be tempted to use BA again on some flights, rather than the odd associated flight in the last few years such as GLA-Stornoway and CPT-Port Elizabeth, hardly mainstream.
I am also a regional pax, and I am amazed anyone routes MAN/LHR/MAD/Any S.A. Destination. It appears madness. 4 flights when 2 will do. I will fly LPL/MAD on EZY and IB from there, (although I am looking at alternatives to IB). This routing, despite booking in luggage again, is a lot less hassle and I can chill out in the lounge if connection time permits. Another positive is that you avoid the long haul tax this way. However, I put MAD in the same category as LHR in trying to avoid. Both have good elements but can be a nightmare at times. The new terminal at MAD is the only one I know where you have to catch a train from one part of the terminal to another. Its caught many pax out, including myself.
I'm hoping that the merger will bring about the best bits of both airlines, and I certainly hope that that everyone employed will keep their jobs, particularly in these uncertain times. I might even be tempted to use BA again on some flights, rather than the odd associated flight in the last few years such as GLA-Stornoway and CPT-Port Elizabeth, hardly mainstream.
I agree with your opinion about the cabin crew, as they are well known as not been very serviceable and been also unfriendly.
Concerning the train service in Madrid from T4 to T4S, I´ve seen that kind of trains on many airports around the world and it doesn´t suppose a problem for nobody, except you.
Paxing All Over The World
Having read the whole thread, I see that some took a swipe at Branson attacking the deal. (I am not, nor have ever been an employee/shareholder of VS) If Branson did NOT attack the deal - he would not be doing his job. During the last BA/AA attempt, I recall WW saying that, if their jobs were reversed, he would be doing the same as Branson.
Many here seem to consider the KLM/AF deal a success and I have nothing to go on but what they say. I suggest that the difference is this: KLM/AF had time, unions and money on their side. If they have gone six years and are still not integrated - they have not saved as much money as they could have. So they can still squeeze more, but are unlikely to.
BA/IB have no time, or money and the unions will be against them. Unless they integrate FAST, they won't save the money and they will fall into the pit together. Since both companies are very long in the tooth, I would not be surprised to see this happen. Then the only question is: Will OWA come to their rescue and really start the consolidation or will KLM/AF try to rescue them and break all the alliances?
Of course, if they do collapse inward on themselves, most of the folks who are orchestrating this - will be retired and taking their pensions. Since someone mentioned the Daimler/Chrysler merger that had to be unpicked - I wonder if the ones who put it together had to pay back their bonus' and return the gold medals? That car merger never made cultural sense and I was not in the least surprised when it failed. This air merger will be overtaken by other world and financial events, so that it's success or failure will be hidden, from most!
Many here seem to consider the KLM/AF deal a success and I have nothing to go on but what they say. I suggest that the difference is this: KLM/AF had time, unions and money on their side. If they have gone six years and are still not integrated - they have not saved as much money as they could have. So they can still squeeze more, but are unlikely to.
BA/IB have no time, or money and the unions will be against them. Unless they integrate FAST, they won't save the money and they will fall into the pit together. Since both companies are very long in the tooth, I would not be surprised to see this happen. Then the only question is: Will OWA come to their rescue and really start the consolidation or will KLM/AF try to rescue them and break all the alliances?
Of course, if they do collapse inward on themselves, most of the folks who are orchestrating this - will be retired and taking their pensions. Since someone mentioned the Daimler/Chrysler merger that had to be unpicked - I wonder if the ones who put it together had to pay back their bonus' and return the gold medals? That car merger never made cultural sense and I was not in the least surprised when it failed. This air merger will be overtaken by other world and financial events, so that it's success or failure will be hidden, from most!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: -11`
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a huge difference in the way the (pilots)unions in the OneWorld Alliance view the whole merger/joint venture development as opposed to the unions in the Skyteam Alliance. Just look at the current opposition from the AA pilots against the JV with BA.
This can be of great influence, as the previous poster also indicates. You need to have the support of the employees if you want to go down this path.
The brandnew JV between AF/KLM/Delta over the north atlantic will be a great success and is fully supported by the pilots.
This can be of great influence, as the previous poster also indicates. You need to have the support of the employees if you want to go down this path.
The brandnew JV between AF/KLM/Delta over the north atlantic will be a great success and is fully supported by the pilots.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I still cannot see it happening, and if by some remote chance it does, I see a remote chance of it being a success. In my time, BA was in the ring for a merger with United, USAir, AA, KLM, Sabena, Alitalia, Iberia (previously).....there were more, many more, but they have gone in the mists of time!
Unlike AF/KLM, and I still marvel at the success of that amalgamation of Catholic and Protestant cultures, but still don't feel it will last, I think BA will find it difficult to amalgamate. It still has the best worldwide connections, but with a moronic government determined to stamp out 'evil' air travel and use it to raise tax revenue under the guise of 'green' taxes, the predominance of LHR is slowly vanishing and the central axis of European travel moves to a Frankfurt/Amsterdam/Paris axis. Sad, but with a stupid hostile government strangling BA at Heathrow, BA is in for a very hard time. It won't be long before people sort out shorthaul flights out of the UK to join a longhaul flight out of Europe not subject to the disgraceful tax raising of this government. Then BA goes under!
Unlike AF/KLM, and I still marvel at the success of that amalgamation of Catholic and Protestant cultures, but still don't feel it will last, I think BA will find it difficult to amalgamate. It still has the best worldwide connections, but with a moronic government determined to stamp out 'evil' air travel and use it to raise tax revenue under the guise of 'green' taxes, the predominance of LHR is slowly vanishing and the central axis of European travel moves to a Frankfurt/Amsterdam/Paris axis. Sad, but with a stupid hostile government strangling BA at Heathrow, BA is in for a very hard time. It won't be long before people sort out shorthaul flights out of the UK to join a longhaul flight out of Europe not subject to the disgraceful tax raising of this government. Then BA goes under!
BA was in the ring for a merger with United, USAir, AA, KLM, Sabena, Alitalia, Iberia (previously).....there were more, many more, but they have gone in the mists of time!
