United pilot arrested at LHR

[Legalapproach]

The average person gets rid of alcohol at the rate of roughly one unit per hour - equiv to about 1/2 pint normal strength beer (proper beer - bitter) however, this is extremely variable and depends upon a number of factors such as body weight, metabolic rate, whether a person has eaten or not and if so what. It will also depend upon the rate and quantity over which the alcohol has been consumed. I have seen numerous back calculations carried out and the range is quite wide.

During less PC days I once attended a lawyers v cops christmas charity quiz held in a police station bar (since closed by a Chief Constable with no sense of fun). One of the events of the evening involved three individuals being taken down to the cells and put on the intoximeter. A sweepstake was then run on their readings. The results were quite surprising - a couple were in the expected range but the third registered about half what he should have done but then he was a fat bastard who had consumed a donor and chips early on in the session.

[Tri-To-Start]

One can easily see that in cases of sufficiently high BAC, 12 hours is not enough time to get down to .04 or below.

I would venture a guess that his "partaking of the spirits" was the evening before. I don't think it's all that likely that a professional pilot would wake up and hit the bottle a few hours before the flight.

Assuming he was close to .02 at the time of arrest (ie noon) then 10 hrs. earlier (ie 2 am) he could have reached a level of about .15 which could have been around 7-8 drinks. (assuming a normal metabolism and an alcohol burnoff rate of .015/hr).

That level of drunkeness would have been very obvious especially at the time and probably even into the morning. If he had breakfast with the crew it should have been obvious that he had tied one on the night before.

[Iceman49]

"I personally don't fly commercial any oftener than I have to, and this is one of the reasons.

Flying commercial at one time was a pretty good guarantee of safety, of placing your butt into the loving, caring hands of consummate professionals.

Now, not so much.

It seems, these days, that boarding a flight means you're a member of a certain "risk pool."

Zoso, I think you have to consider the thousands of flights every day and the number of individuals that travel safely....your "risk pool" goes up exponentially when you step in side an auto or other means of transportation. You are still in the caring hands of consummate professionals.

[Tri-To-Start]

Zoso, I think you have to consider the thousands of flights every day and the number of individuals that travel safely....your "risk pool" goes up exponentially when you step in side an auto or other means of transportation. You are still in the caring hands of consummate professionals.

Absolutely. Flying has never been safer IMHO. For every story like this you here there are thousand of airline professionals doing everything they can to keep you safe.

In this case the system worked. The pilot was safely removed by procedures in place by the airline and the airport.

Humans are imperfect, but in spite of it the system works pretty darn good.

If you think pilots didn't get drunk in the old days you're mistaken. They just didn't get caught. The old rule of thumb was you quit drinking when you saw the airplane.

[frangatang]

It would be interesting to turn the spotlight on cabin crew as there are more than a few
who certainly sail close to the wind, recreational drugs downroute included!

[snaproll3480]

rottenray,

There you go again. While I agree with you on the subject at hand, your posts are consistently inflamatory. You obviously have a problem with people and no understanding of human factors. You say you look forward to a fully automated cockpit. You do realize that people still have to program the computers. In any system there will always be the possibility of human error. As former USAF, you should know that no matter how professional a pilot or mechanic may be, he is still human.

[AnthonyGA]

I also read that it was UA groundstaff who reported the pilot.

Can anyone tell me why they would do that rather than just preventing him from flying?

Because drunk pilots need to find new careers? Presumably the ground staff was more worried about keeping passengers and crew alive than it was about saving this intoxicated pilot's job. The idea is not to cover for a drunk pilot, but to remove him. Those who cover for pilots who are not fit to fly are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

An article in USA Today claims that only about a dozen U.S. pilots are caught intoxicated by alcohol each year by authorities. The aviation industry can very easily do without these pilots. Unfortunately, for every one that is caught, there are probably many others who fly intoxicated. Still, abuse of alcohol is exceptionally rare among pilots, many of whom don't drink at all, just to be safe. If all pilots who insisted on flying under the influence of ethanol were removed from their jobs, plenty of other pilots would be instantly ready to step up and take their places, and they would be more than willing to stay drug-free for the privilege.

If one beer is enough to be over the limit, then why not just skip the beer and have a soda pop instead? If taking this drug is so important that a pilot is willing to risk his career to indulge his desire for it, he has a serious problem and shouldn't be going near a flight deck at all.

Yes, there are many other things that can impair pilots. But that simply means that these other sources of impairment need to be addressed, too—it does not mean that impairment by alcohol should be tolerated. The idea is to increase safety, not reduce it. Additionally, a drunk pilot has voluntarily impaired himself, then has voluntarily chosen to fly unsafely. That's a bit different from someone who has been excessively fatigued by inappropriate work schedules and risks retaliation by his employer if he dares to admit that he is unfit to fly. In both cases, the pilot needs to stay on the ground, but in the first case, the pilot is entirely the source of his own problem, which he could have avoided without any effort at all.

If you don't wanted to end your career because of alcohol abuse, don't drink. If you cannot stay away from alcohol long enough to be at zero when you fly, despite the danger of killing yourself and others and the danger of destroying your career even if you survive, then you have a drinking problem, whether you are willing to admit it or not. If you are so reckless that you are willing to intoxicate yourself despite the risks, then you have personality issues that are incompatible with the piloting profession, and you need to find a different line of work in which your disregard for safety will not be a danger to others.

The reputation of the entire flying profession is being threatened by a drunken few who never should have gone near an airplane to begin with. It amazes me that so many people jump publicly to the defense of this handful of losers; it only worsens the damage to the image of professional pilots everywhere.

[Tri-To-Start]

The other thing I don't quite understand is why a pilot who'd been under the influence doesn't just call in sick.

If this pilot called in sick, UA would have find a reserve and it would likely be no questions asked and no serious career impact.

However by chancing it he just ended his career.

[cityfan]

He did not simply materialize at LHR, so he was probably WITH crewmembers for the 30-45-60 minute ride from the hotel. Maybe they did not think anything of him? Maybe they did and were less than helpful? Maybe we will find out when things work themselves through?

As for alcohol testing, I have heard it said, by a wiser man than me, that the test is NOT actually an alcohol test, but an IQ test! I only hope that this is not the tip of the iceberg for this pilot and that IF he does need help, then this is the exact impetus he needs to get that help.

My best to him and his family, who are probably ALL suffering. While I may not condone his supposed behavior, that does not negate the compassion I feel for him and his family.

One last thing, it is funny how EVERY major fatigue study shows that pilot fatigue is often chronic and insidious. However, of even greater note is that it has the same EFFECT of performance as BEING DRUNK! Don't hear anything about that MAJOR ISSUE from the Charlie's on here who are quick to hang every pilot who steps over an often invisible line, even though FATIGUE affects almost ALL major airline pilot on a regular basis.

P.S. AnthonyGA....have to say that you seem to have some deep seated anger against pilots, alcohol, and possibly other issues. Please step back and LISTEN if you have such little insight into the job. Thanks, mate.

[AlpineSkier]

Perhaps flight-crew could answer this.

Would company regulations normally include a procedure for company personnel to prevent a captain from boarding his aircraft if they had suspicions about capability ?

And if it concerned alcohol, can they enforce a breath-test without involving the police ?

[Tan]

At my shop there is an internal process to follow if anyone suspects that any crewmember is not capable of performing his or her duties for whatever reason. The crewmember in question would be immediately removed from duty and it doesn’t involve the authorities. The rest of the industry has the same standards but unfortunately s### happens.

There has to be more to this story..

[Tri-To-Start]

Can any mainline airline pilots answer these questions. What if the UA pilot decided he made a bad mistake and chose to call in sick that morning.

1. Does he simply call the airline and say he's sick? (no questions asked)
2. Does he need involvement from a doctor to either substantiate his sick claim or to release him back to duty?
3. Would he likely deadhead back to his home station once he claims he's better or would they fit him back in with a crew?
4. Would sick time pay typically cover the flight hours he would have lost by not flying? (or was there a financial incentive for him to try to fly that day)
5. Is there any major negative ramification of calling in sick?

[Tan]

1. Yes
2. No; see 3
3. Depends on the illness
4. Yes its in my contract
5. No

[AnthonyGA]

… it is funny how EVERY major fatigue study shows that pilot fatigue is often chronic and insidious. However, of even greater note is that it has the same EFFECT of performance as BEING DRUNK! Don't hear anything about that MAJOR ISSUE from the Charlie's on here who are quick to hang every pilot who steps over an often invisible line, even though FATIGUE affects almost ALL major airline pilot on a regular basis.

Pilots should be prevented from flying if they are too tired, also. The fact that they are not does not justify allowing them to fly while taking drugs. Too wrongs don't make a right. The solution is to stop pilots from flying when tired, not to look the other way when they fly drunk.

And there is no invisible line. If you don't want to be intoxicated, don't drink. If you don't want to fail an alcohol test, don't drink. It's easy.

The limit should be set to zero. People who are addicted to alcohol will drink as much as they can get away with. If the limit is 0.02, they'll drink up to 0.02; if it's 0.50, they'll drink up to 0.50. And they'll always claim that it's okay as long as they are below whatever the limit is set to. The only way to deal with this is zero tolerance.

For someone who is not addicted, abstaining entirely from alcohol long enough to have zero alcohol in his system is effortless. For someone who is addicted, it's virtually impossible. But that doesn't mean that addicts should be allowed to drink, it means that they must be removed from duty until and unless they can be trusted to stay clean while flying.

P.S. AnthonyGA....have to say that you seem to have some deep seated anger against pilots, alcohol, and possibly other issues.

Nope, just a lot of time dealing with people who are addicted and in denial. Some of them are in jail now, and some others are dead. I've seen a number of posts here that show many or all of the symptoms. What worries me is that some of the people writing the posts may be pilots.

I don't really care if addicts decide to kill themselves with drugs, be it alcohol or anything else … as long as they don't take anyone else with them.

Unfortunately, people with drug problems who operate vehicles often kill other people. Therefore people with drug problems need to be kept away from jobs that involve operating vehicles.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

At my shop there is an internal process to follow if anyone suspects that any crewmember is not capable of performing his or her duties for whatever reason. The crewmember in question would be immediately removed from duty and it doesn’t involve the authorities.

So you're saying that your organisation has built-in policies and procedures for routinely perverting the course of justice? Perhaps you could name this organisation so that we could avoid them?

[Tan]

Gertrude the Wombat

That’s not the intent of what I wrote and you know it, so please quit playing stupid.

Your age, weight, gender, and time of day, physical condition, prior amount of food consumed, other drugs or medication taken, and a multitude of other factors affect your blood alcohol level. The DOT has established a 0.02% (0.02g/dL) as the level at which an individual is considered positive for the present of alcohol. Some jurisdictions use 0.01%-0.02% BAC to define zero tolerance to allow for variation in alcohol testing instruments.

The average individual appears normal with a BAC reading between 0.01%-0.029%..

Why are some folks rushing to judgement without knowing the details of what happened?

[cityfan]

AnthonyGA,

Unfortunately, people with drug problems who operate vehicles often kill other people. Therefore people with drug problems need to be kept away from jobs that involve operating vehicles.

Could you tell me which (any) major airline incident causing death was determined to be due to a pilot acting under the influence of alcohol, please?

Also, for someone such as myself, who flies 18 days per month, when EXACTLY is one allowed to have an adult beverage. As it is, many airlines, including my own, have a 50% higher standard than the FAA on when you can and cannot drink alcohol. In addition, it is NOT alcohol USE that causes positive tests, but ABUSE. You should know the difference, IF you have seen what you say you have seen.

[cityfan]

A definite maybe!

Can any mainline airline pilots answer these questions. What if the UA pilot decided he made a bad mistake and chose to call in sick that morning.

1. Does he simply call the airline and say he's sick? (no questions asked)
2. Does he need involvement from a doctor to either substantiate his sick claim or to release him back to duty?
3. Would he likely deadhead back to his home station once he claims he's better or would they fit him back in with a crew?
4. Would sick time pay typically cover the flight hours he would have lost by not flying? (or was there a financial incentive for him to try to fly that day)
5. Is there any major negative ramification of calling in sick?

Tan responded:

1. Yes
2. No; see 3
3. Depends on the illness
4. Yes its in my contract
5. No

While this may be true for Tan's airline, it is not true in all circumstances, including those for the airline involved.

1. Yes.
2. Maybe, depends on prior sick leave usage.
3. They would try and get him home asap, unless there was some reason that the airline was understaffed overseas, while is rarely the case.
4. Maybe, see #2
5. Maybe, especially if he has been highlighted by the company's Absence Management System(AMS), which tracks ALL absences, especially the occurrence and timing of sick leave usage.

I do not know if this particular pilot is in AMS or not. However, even more importantly, if he needs assistance, I hope he is getting it from the union and company's Employee Assistance Program, which is an excellent resource for all company employees, including pilots, when necessary.

[Tri-To-Start]

Thanks Tan and Cityfan,
Then the only thing that prevented this pilot from simply calling in sick was likely ego, judgement and desire to get back home.

It sounds like airline policy is such that there are no significant ramifications in simply calling in sick regardless of the reason as long as it's not frequently abused?

Hope this pilot can get some help.

[SDFlyer]

Legalapproach: Yes - the limit applies to any pilot regardless of the type of licence they hold. The law really intends to create a zero alcohol rule. The small amount it allows for is intended to deal with very small amounts of alcohol that naturally occur in some individuals as a result of production by the body as opposed to consumption.

Thanks, that makes sense. It's certainly uncompromising.

Legalapproach: Watneys - I wonder if that party seven can is still doing the student party circuit?

So do I. Ahhh, happy memories.

Alpineskier: I can tell you why UA staff would choose to call the cops on the alcohol-smelling pilot rather than take some other course. Because of the effect that doing so would have, which they considered desirable - bravo to them.