United pilot arrested at LHR
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perhaps you should consider land or sea transport.
BBC NEWS | UK | England | Lincolnshire | Drunk ship crash captain jailed
Exclusive: Train driver quits job after police breathalyser test - The Daily Record
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I'm thrilled everytime I hear of a pilot getting fired for being drunk (probably really hung-over is the real reason in 99 percent of these cases). Why? Simple. It means that (us) redundant pilots move one person closer to making a living again. So, drink up boys! Cheers. 
Call me an innocent at large, accuse me of not understanding, call me what you like, flame me if you like BUT,
I don't want anyone even whiffing slightly of alcahol at the pointy end when I fly or when one is passing overhead.
Doc C
I don't want anyone even whiffing slightly of alcahol at the pointy end when I fly or when one is passing overhead.
Doc C
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SD Flyer
Yes - the limit applies to any pilot regardless of the type of licence they hold. The law really intends to create a zero alcohol rule. The small amount it allows for is intended to deal with very small amounts of alcohol that naturally occur in some individuals as a result of production by the body as opposed to consumption.
Watneys - I wonder if that party seven can is still doing the student party circuit?
Wouldn't a pint of shandy, or a half of Watneys, threaten to put you over that limit? Is it the same with GA in the U.K. I'm wondering?
Watneys - I wonder if that party seven can is still doing the student party circuit?
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This sort of problem can be avoided by simply not drinking alcohol.
Each time alcohol comes up here, I see an endless series of rationalizations, arguments, and apologies that create the very distinct impression that a lot of pilots drink regularly and think it's okay as long as they are "legal." It creates a very poor impression of pilots as a profession (assuming that the pilots making these posts here are truly pilots). It creates the impression that a lot of pilots are just barely legal while they are in the cockpit. That is not reassuring. Surely there must be some pilots who believe that the only acceptable level of alcohol is zero alcohol; why don't they speak up?
I don't want anyone who has been drinking flying my plane, either. I don't care if he's legal or not. I don't want him to have any impairing drugs at all in his system. If he can't stay away from alcohol long enough to be completely clean when he walks onto the flight deck, he needs to find a different job. To me, there is nothing the least bit admirable about managing to stay just below the legal limit. In fact, pushing that limit is irresponsible and reckless. The only safe limit is zero.
I'm sure that nobody would be apologizing or rationalizing if this pilot had heroin in his system. But I suspect that's because heroin is illegal generally (no legal limit), and because most pilots don't take heroin and thus do not imagine themselves being arrested for it. The irony is that, illegal or not, opioids produce less impairment than alcohol, particularly at therapeutic doses. But while many people here apparently drug themselves with ethanol on a regular basis (otherwise they would not manifest the immediate knee-jerk objections to anyone being arrested for using it), few of them take heroin regularly, so their attitudes are different, even if the objective facts and risks are not.
It is possible to live a happy, drug-free life. Which is more fun: flying among the clouds, or getting drunk? If you were forced to choose, which would you prefer?
Each time alcohol comes up here, I see an endless series of rationalizations, arguments, and apologies that create the very distinct impression that a lot of pilots drink regularly and think it's okay as long as they are "legal." It creates a very poor impression of pilots as a profession (assuming that the pilots making these posts here are truly pilots). It creates the impression that a lot of pilots are just barely legal while they are in the cockpit. That is not reassuring. Surely there must be some pilots who believe that the only acceptable level of alcohol is zero alcohol; why don't they speak up?
I don't want anyone who has been drinking flying my plane, either. I don't care if he's legal or not. I don't want him to have any impairing drugs at all in his system. If he can't stay away from alcohol long enough to be completely clean when he walks onto the flight deck, he needs to find a different job. To me, there is nothing the least bit admirable about managing to stay just below the legal limit. In fact, pushing that limit is irresponsible and reckless. The only safe limit is zero.
I'm sure that nobody would be apologizing or rationalizing if this pilot had heroin in his system. But I suspect that's because heroin is illegal generally (no legal limit), and because most pilots don't take heroin and thus do not imagine themselves being arrested for it. The irony is that, illegal or not, opioids produce less impairment than alcohol, particularly at therapeutic doses. But while many people here apparently drug themselves with ethanol on a regular basis (otherwise they would not manifest the immediate knee-jerk objections to anyone being arrested for using it), few of them take heroin regularly, so their attitudes are different, even if the objective facts and risks are not.
It is possible to live a happy, drug-free life. Which is more fun: flying among the clouds, or getting drunk? If you were forced to choose, which would you prefer?
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Anthony you would love the Chicago Tribune story this morning then. They interviewed another UAL pilot for the story and on the subject of drinking while on a layover he said "It's the thing to do".
This story got a front page treatment here in United's hometown.
This story got a front page treatment here in United's hometown.
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why don't we breathalyse the brussels MP's that made the law after they have had a good lunch on return to the chamber.I remember not so long ago Air france pilots having wine with their inflight meal.And while were about it close the bloody subsidised bar in the commons.Whats good for the goose and all that.
I am not suggesting for one moment that alchohol and transport ops make good bedfellows,they don't full stop.What i find interesting is the desire to increase flying duty periods leading to excessive fatigue by the same people.We had a limit that worked well for many years and was rarely abused. I work on the principle if it isn't broke don't fix it.I cannot think of one accident in public transport ops that was attributed to pilots being over the alchohol limit.Fatigue,now that's a different story.
I am not suggesting for one moment that alchohol and transport ops make good bedfellows,they don't full stop.What i find interesting is the desire to increase flying duty periods leading to excessive fatigue by the same people.We had a limit that worked well for many years and was rarely abused. I work on the principle if it isn't broke don't fix it.I cannot think of one accident in public transport ops that was attributed to pilots being over the alchohol limit.Fatigue,now that's a different story.
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Anthony GA:
I don't think its a case of pontificating to pilots not to drink alcohol -
that would never happen -
common sense dictates that they should arrive at their place of work sober - and in a fit state to fly.
I am sure pilots who have not had any drink within 24hours of a flight but have been otherwise "under the weather" due to a virus or bug - have taken the controls of aeroplanes when not fit to do so.
At the end of the day - there is a very low limit on alcohol - which I personally , as SLF, am very happy with : everybody knows the rules and the risks in breaking them.
And the numbers will always add up to some people over stepping those limits.
In this case, it appears that the pilot was fingered by his own staff - if they were correct to do so - well done to them. We'll find out in due course.
However, it is easy to criticise the pilot concerned, but , if he has made the mistake of having too much to drink, what choices did he have?
Does he "throw the sicky" and get rosta'd for the next day or whatever happens to pilots in such circumstances may be someone on here can enlighten me ? What are the consequences for him taking that option?
Bare in mind, he's a long way out from home, and can't exactly "leave his car and get a cab home" - so , I guess, there will have been self-imposed pressure to get back "home" - get on the flight deck and get over the pond. He's also in a foriegn country - does that imply as much as a threat as it does if you are on "home" soil ? I am not sure...... would be interested to know what the professionals think.
I am not trying to justify the pilots' actions if he has had too much to drink - just trying to ascertain what pressures would still take him to the flight deck when the obvious option is to "no-show"....
I don't think its a case of pontificating to pilots not to drink alcohol -
that would never happen -
common sense dictates that they should arrive at their place of work sober - and in a fit state to fly.
I am sure pilots who have not had any drink within 24hours of a flight but have been otherwise "under the weather" due to a virus or bug - have taken the controls of aeroplanes when not fit to do so.
At the end of the day - there is a very low limit on alcohol - which I personally , as SLF, am very happy with : everybody knows the rules and the risks in breaking them.
And the numbers will always add up to some people over stepping those limits.
In this case, it appears that the pilot was fingered by his own staff - if they were correct to do so - well done to them. We'll find out in due course.
However, it is easy to criticise the pilot concerned, but , if he has made the mistake of having too much to drink, what choices did he have?
Does he "throw the sicky" and get rosta'd for the next day or whatever happens to pilots in such circumstances may be someone on here can enlighten me ? What are the consequences for him taking that option?
Bare in mind, he's a long way out from home, and can't exactly "leave his car and get a cab home" - so , I guess, there will have been self-imposed pressure to get back "home" - get on the flight deck and get over the pond. He's also in a foriegn country - does that imply as much as a threat as it does if you are on "home" soil ? I am not sure...... would be interested to know what the professionals think.
I am not trying to justify the pilots' actions if he has had too much to drink - just trying to ascertain what pressures would still take him to the flight deck when the obvious option is to "no-show"....
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Acuatity
Every time that subjects like this arrive, there is a lot of anghuish and little fact.
The pilot is over the limit!
Yes he is. But there is a significant difference between cultures.
In the US of A a pilot is over the limit if he test 40mg.
But if he submits himself to a rehabilitation process he can redeem his licence.
In Europe he is over the limit if he tests 20 Mg and there is no help - just loss of a job et al!
How does this affect one?
Well arrive in LHR - have a drink before going to bed. And you are clear as far as America is concerned.
As far as Eurpe is concerned - you are gambling with you life.
How do you equate all of this with several studies which say that the effect of 10 hours duty against the circadian rythem produces a perfoemance detriment equal to 60 mg of alcohol?
If we want the safety most of the contributers insist on - no flying beyond 10 hours?
The Europen law was intended to be ZERO booze - but the machine could not measure that!
So the regulators settled for the lowest the thing could measure - 20mg
Think about the effects of a zero rating.
The pilot is over the limit!
Yes he is. But there is a significant difference between cultures.
In the US of A a pilot is over the limit if he test 40mg.
But if he submits himself to a rehabilitation process he can redeem his licence.
In Europe he is over the limit if he tests 20 Mg and there is no help - just loss of a job et al!
How does this affect one?
Well arrive in LHR - have a drink before going to bed. And you are clear as far as America is concerned.
As far as Eurpe is concerned - you are gambling with you life.
How do you equate all of this with several studies which say that the effect of 10 hours duty against the circadian rythem produces a perfoemance detriment equal to 60 mg of alcohol?
If we want the safety most of the contributers insist on - no flying beyond 10 hours?
The Europen law was intended to be ZERO booze - but the machine could not measure that!
So the regulators settled for the lowest the thing could measure - 20mg
Think about the effects of a zero rating.
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Handfly
Sorry, but thats not correct. Both screening and evidential breath test machines will register BAC from zero upwards.
There are a number of Countries in Europe that have a zero BAC for driving, and these machines are used as evidence in those countries.
The reason why a blood sample is taken is, even though the legislation in the UK provides for breath to be used there is an agreement between the CAA and ACPO that blood will be the used to determine the reading.
That works very much in the favour of those affected, in that it takes around an hour between time of arrest and time of blood being taken. In that time, those who are close to the limit at time of arrest, stand a more than good chance of going below the limit. In effect, it allows for them to take it as a wake up call, those who are way over, well, it was their decision to drink, no one forces anyone to do so.
Sorry, but thats not correct. Both screening and evidential breath test machines will register BAC from zero upwards.
There are a number of Countries in Europe that have a zero BAC for driving, and these machines are used as evidence in those countries.
The reason why a blood sample is taken is, even though the legislation in the UK provides for breath to be used there is an agreement between the CAA and ACPO that blood will be the used to determine the reading.
That works very much in the favour of those affected, in that it takes around an hour between time of arrest and time of blood being taken. In that time, those who are close to the limit at time of arrest, stand a more than good chance of going below the limit. In effect, it allows for them to take it as a wake up call, those who are way over, well, it was their decision to drink, no one forces anyone to do so.
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Quite a few things give false positives on breath tests. Some aren't obvious.. Allways ask for a blood test..
Using asthma inhalers...
Using asthma inhalers can give false positive results in breath tests -- Bosch 324 (7340): 756 -- BMJ
Low cal diet....
False-positive breath-alcohol test after a ketogenic diet
"bread ice cream" (whatever that is)...
DUI breath-alcohol machines give false positives - DUI laws lawyers and information about drunk driving at DUI Colorado Law
but beware... Wikipedia says that the breathaliser over reads in 23% of people so presumably it under reads in 77% of people? eg the blood test will probably come back higher?
Breathalyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interestingly it also says..
So perhaps jet fumes?
Using asthma inhalers...
Using asthma inhalers can give false positive results in breath tests -- Bosch 324 (7340): 756 -- BMJ
Low cal diet....
False-positive breath-alcohol test after a ketogenic diet
"bread ice cream" (whatever that is)...
DUI breath-alcohol machines give false positives - DUI laws lawyers and information about drunk driving at DUI Colorado Law
but beware... Wikipedia says that the breathaliser over reads in 23% of people so presumably it under reads in 77% of people? eg the blood test will probably come back higher?
Breathalyzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interestingly it also says..
Any number of other products found in the environment or workplace can also cause erroneous BAC results. These include compounds found in lacquer, paint remover, celluloid, gasoline, and cleaning fluids, especially ethers, alcohols, and other volatile compounds
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I also read that it was UA groundstaff who reported the pilot.
Can anyone tell me why they would do that rather than just preventing him from flying ? Are there any legal ramifications i.e. BAA rules ( or whatever ) saying that it is obligatory to inform police in such circumstances, even though they had the means to stop him proceeding to the plane ?
Can anyone tell me why they would do that rather than just preventing him from flying ? Are there any legal ramifications i.e. BAA rules ( or whatever ) saying that it is obligatory to inform police in such circumstances, even though they had the means to stop him proceeding to the plane ?
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Latest is that it was Cabin Crew who reported Pilot!
USA Today reports:
Media across the USA and the United Kingdom continue to update the story about the United pilot who was arrested on drinking charges just before he was to fly a trans-Atlantic flight from London to Chicago.
The Sun, one of London's tabloid newspapers, offers this account: "The pilot of a passenger jet was dramatically arrested shortly before take-off at Heathrow Airport after cops were told he had been drinking by the chief steward. The crew member had a massive row with the United Airlines captain as he prepared his Boeing 777 for a flight from London to Chicago. The plane's doors were re-opened and cops boarded Flight 949 in front of stunned passengers. Officers breathalysed the American pilot and arrested him after his reading was over the alcohol limit."
The Daily Mail of London writes "a member of the cabin crew who reported him to police said (the pilot) had allegedly barricaded himself in the cockpit for over an hour before police convinced him to come out." A Heathrow spokesman tells the Daily Mail that the pilot "was reported to police by United Airlines staff. I believe departure was imminent."
The Sun, one of London's tabloid newspapers, offers this account: "The pilot of a passenger jet was dramatically arrested shortly before take-off at Heathrow Airport after cops were told he had been drinking by the chief steward. The crew member had a massive row with the United Airlines captain as he prepared his Boeing 777 for a flight from London to Chicago. The plane's doors were re-opened and cops boarded Flight 949 in front of stunned passengers. Officers breathalysed the American pilot and arrested him after his reading was over the alcohol limit."
The Daily Mail of London writes "a member of the cabin crew who reported him to police said (the pilot) had allegedly barricaded himself in the cockpit for over an hour before police convinced him to come out." A Heathrow spokesman tells the Daily Mail that the pilot "was reported to police by United Airlines staff. I believe departure was imminent."
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.02 is the equivalent of a man having half a beer. That's hardly drunk unless this person had a very low tolerance to alcohol. I'm curious what set of actions triggered the chief steward to turn him in?
The only scenario I can think of is he really tied one on the night before and was observed by the steward at a restaurant or hotel bar.
I wonder if the 24hr bottle to throttle rule is even enough time to slip under the .02 limit?
I don't see how .02 could seriously impair a pilot unless it was preceeded by a major bout of drinking and a massive hangover which the steward thought was a threat to the flight.
Does anyone know the rate that an average man burns off alcohol. How many drinks 12 hours previous would result in a residual level of .02?
The only scenario I can think of is he really tied one on the night before and was observed by the steward at a restaurant or hotel bar.
I wonder if the 24hr bottle to throttle rule is even enough time to slip under the .02 limit?
I don't see how .02 could seriously impair a pilot unless it was preceeded by a major bout of drinking and a massive hangover which the steward thought was a threat to the flight.
Does anyone know the rate that an average man burns off alcohol. How many drinks 12 hours previous would result in a residual level of .02?
I used to shoot aerial stuff, flying out of Edinburgh Turnhouse, as it was then.
Never knew what the best time to book the flight was.
Before the pilot had a drink, or after when he was appreciably steadier.
The guy ended up flying into a hill whilst flying up to Glenrothes to fuel up with cheaper stuff.
Took a student down with him as well sadly.
That was then, this is now.
Never knew what the best time to book the flight was.
Before the pilot had a drink, or after when he was appreciably steadier.
The guy ended up flying into a hill whilst flying up to Glenrothes to fuel up with cheaper stuff.
Took a student down with him as well sadly.
That was then, this is now.
More bang for your buck
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.02 is the equivalent of a man having half a beer. That's hardly drunk unless this person had a very low tolerance to alcohol. I'm curious what set of actions triggered the chief steward to turn him in?
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Tri-to-Start, I believe generally used the rate of burnoff is .015 per hour. Thus, if one was .15 at one point, it would take 10 hours to metabolize to zero. However, that number varies depending upon the physiology of the individual. One can easily see that in cases of sufficiently high BAC, 12 hours is not enough time to get down to .04 or below.