CX sack 49 via DHL; impose new contract

[Slasher]

I wouldnt exactley discount maxalt. His posts and others prove at least the sc@bs are aware of whats happening and waiting in the wings readey to pounce at the earliest oportunity. Unfortunatley this mutant breed of subhuman will always be around our industry.

Good luck to all CX pilots.

[The Prisoner]

My prediction is that the company will reinstate the sacked pilots as long as the industrial action is called off. The union members will accept the 6+3% rise for "B" scalers, and call off the action. Unfortunatly management may have this dispute sussed.Most the second officers are quivering in their socks over industrial action.None want to return to Australia just yet.

[Tosh26]

CX Pilots

Come on guys, you really must wake up – it’s only your friends looking in from afar who can tell you this. Your battle is going to be won or lost on the PR front and you’re not doing well at the moment. Your opponents have to be shamed by public opinion into resuming negotiations – once that happens you can call the tune but not until. Similarly, a few holes below the opponent's waterline are going to rally your own troops no end!

Quote: Ms Sandra Li, HK Economic Services Secretary

(The economy)”should in no way be hijacked by the actions of a few hundred people or a number of people who have repeatedly in the last few years been threatening actions of one kind or another”

That followed a preamble of:

“More than 90 percent of Cathay Pacific’s flight crew are foreigners – many being British or Australian expatriates – and expecting them to be accountable to HK’s wider interests may be asking for the impossible” (Reported in the Straits Times, Singapore, 11 July 2001).

Now if that isn’t straight from the CX PR department then the moon is made of cheese.

Perhaps a PR response may be along the lines of:

“Most of our pilots are long term HK residents, accompanied by their families and whose childrens’ education and development is tied to the long term social and economic well being of the Special Area of Responsibility (SAR). Unfortunately a dispute has arisen between the pilots and a newly arrived, 100 percent foreign management, who now refuse to enter further discussion, to secure their shareholders future interests and the SAR’s wider interests and development”.

However, the above is far better as an attack than a defensive counter – so get moving – your opponents are arrogant, prickly and personally dislike the pilots they deal with (obvious from watching CNN interviews) so any proactive PR move on your part is really going to rattle them – then they’ll get personal and start making emotion induced mistakes - as well as looking like horses’ arses.

Best regards

[mutt]

Ironbutt57,

I don’t believe that you can consider housing and schooling to be goodies. They are necessities required to bring you up to a regular standard of living.

In this part of the world (ME), we do get housing packages but we will never own the property, as for schooling, if I was at home my kids (if any) would go to a free state school, around here we would be required to pay a fortune for schooling, hence the requirement to include it in any pay package.

Mutt

[highcirrus]

I read the same article in the Straits Times from which Tosh quotes. He did not mention that the same theme was echoed in the Chinese language Ming Pao Daily News which went on to further say:

“Pilots who command salaries considered amongst the highest in the world should fulfil their responsibility to the travelling public by putting an end to the industrial action. Senior pilots earn about HK$3.4 million a year, which is more than twice the pay of pilots at Germany’s Lufthansa Airlines”.

I would think that the above also emanates from the Cathay PR Department and I do believe that the negative perceptions aimed at must be countered with professional assistance.

Further, Associate Professor Andy Chan of Hongkong Polytechnic University’s Department of Management (tame academic in the pay of a PR firm?) noted that all members of the HKAOA organising committee are foreigners, before continuing:

“(The foreign pilots) attitude towards the territory’s wider interest would differ from that of local pilots. Pilots recruited overseas could switch to another airline if sacked – although this could mean a loss of seniority – but would be less feasible (why?) for locally trained pilots to do so”.

Cathay spokesman Tony Tyler then said;

“I think the pilots will make a choice. Do they want to carry on with industrial action or get back to work? We’re pretty sure a large number will do that (how many and what is your source of information? – ed). The average pilot doesn’t want any of this”.

The only thing the pilots union came up with was that it was not backing down on its demands for higher pay and better rostering practices.

I must agree with Tosh. You really must do better than this, as the last bit sounds pathetic. You must drop all this stuff about how the management has been playing dirty tricks for the last few years. Get your own offensive going, using the same weapons. Root around a little and find the track record of your opponents, their salaries and bonuses, their options when moving on from HK having left Cathay a shell of its former self, your shareholders' feelings on the declining value of their holdings. In short, use the guerrilla tactics they use.
If you don’t, they’ll beat you using the twin tactic displayed so vividly above – foreign devils ruining HK + divide the ranks and rely on a drift back to work. So please do not fall into the trap – get your own PR people to plant your own stories with your own spin – it’ll work wonders on a population that doesn’t give a toss about roster practices etc!

[Nihontraveller]

Are you sure about that Mutt?

Would your kids really be in government schools at home? Would those schools be anything like the standard that you enjoy in HK?

With a housing allowance maybe you won`t ever own the property but it`s for free right? Presumably you are buying another place somewhere in the world or investing the money you don`t have to lay out in HK.

As a long-term expat in Asia I know how easy to take those things for granted.

That is not to say that the CX management is not heavy-handed but the pilots should be careful not to lose sight of that reality.

[Tom Tipper]

PR Improvements needed from CX pilots - agreed wholeheartedly.

Messrs Demery and Findlay: PC wants job with Airport Authority (bypassed recently to current incumbent). Dislikes CEO intensely. TT wanted Air NZ CEO post (bypassed to Dixon) now off to BA after all of this (?). Investigate further and use judiciously.

PR Point: THESE ARE HARDLY THE ACTIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE CX BEST INTERESTS AT HEART (the very public basis of their problems with aircrew).

These guys are out of CX ASAP and are only using victory over you guys as personal milestones for their CV's. Use this stuff wisely in the press and it makes great 'sound-bites' - the stuff PR battles are won and lost by.

Sound Bite 1: Many of our pilots have been with Cathay Pacific for over 20 years. They have and will contribute far more to the long-term success of the Company than many of the individuals at Cathay orchestrating this vendetta against them.

Sound Bite 2: This is a thinly veiled vendetta against expatriate employees. It is taking on the appearance more of retribution for years of colonial control of Hong Kong than the real issue - a dispute over the degraded working conditions of Cathay pilots.

These aren't definitive and may sound overly-dramatic but are an example of stuff that makes newspaper headlines and can effectively alter the mood of the dispute.

Good luck.

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Tom Tipper ]

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Tom Tipper ]

[Thrust]

The contents of this post, which pointed to the identity of one of the contributors to this thread, have been removed to the Administration forum for review.

We don't like people being outed and take the hump, no matter who they are. Don't do it again please.

Sick Squid
Rumours and News Moderator
[email protected].

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[ironbutt57]

Thrust..you unionizers are so childish...why do you even give him a thought if he upsets you so much ignore it...so what? anybody with any ga light airplane experience knows what a heap a cessna 411 is anyway...flown 'em lots before...a nonsensical airplane for sure....anyway sure you have to go back to pissing out the fire in the harbour...good luck....but there are lots of current ansett pilots drooling over your jobs so beware..matey...know lots of them hear the comments...hope it doesn't happen for the sake of the industry...cheers

[411A]

Would have to agree with IB57, the union guys sure are childish, and would also expect that CV's are being polished up now by many, to fill the new positions that will certainly materialize at CX. These guys missed their opportunity to settle their "problems" weeks ago and now find themselves on the short end.
Some guys never learn.

[Tom Tipper]

Well Ive er seen it all now - that sure is some fancy detective work there boys!

[Kubota]

411...You don't upset me half as much anymore now that you have a face. In fact, you seem quite pathetic.

[mutt]

Nihon traveller,

I guess that I didn’t make this clear enough, In this part of the world (ME), The ME part was supposed to stand for Middle East and definitely not Hong Kong. Sorry for the confusion.

Mutt.

[ironbutt57]

So why hide like children there Kubota post it here...Kubota...japanese copy of a real tractor caterpillar...good name for a wannabee...suppose you ride a harley-shaped honda as well?

[FL390]

Hmmm, ironbutt57, that name sounds as though you have a butt made of iron and it is 57 years old!

[caulfield]

The gentleman aviator of bygone days is now a defunct notion.In those hey-days of Imperial Airways where a Captain really was a Captain and simple virtues such as good manners werent derided,you never saw the turmoil that plagues the airline industry today.Pilots were drawn from the ranks of the military with a strong sense of respect and discipline.They werent flight-deck managers,they were pilots!Tradition and the nobility of the profession meant something.
What we've got now is a pale shadow of the real article.Automation and CRM,whilst intrinsically a form of progression,did have their negative effects.THey levelled the playing-field and left us with an egalitarian and antiseptic environment in which to work in.Inevitably,the changing role of the pilot led to the "new-breed",indistinguishable from a bank manager with one eye on their bank balance and the other on their unions ballot paper.Of course pilots werent alone in this social and cultural metamorphosis.The decay of British society(for it is mostly a British disease) that started in the sixties has left its mark on all corners of life.Whereas once we had Churchill,we now have Blair.Family values have been replaced by single-parenting.Bedtime stories have lost out to Nintendo.
So if industrial action is now a part of our lives in much the same way as it was once the domain of a coal-miner,so be it.Let us use this tool with restraint and fairness.Otherwise its going to turn around and bite us where it hurts.

[SLF3]

To summarise:

Management:

'We will pay you identically what it costs to keep you for as long as we need you, and nothing thereafter.

Pilots:

'Never forget we have a choice.'

It seems that management (rightly or wrongly) think they are paying too much, and the pilots (rightly or wrongly) they are receiving too little. Differing perceptions of the supply and demand situation.

Don't get mad, get even. Take what you are offered. If it is not enough, find another job and quit. If it is enough, stay.

If you strike you will damage the airline, possibly fatally: who then benefits?

[411A]

SLF3---
More or less, you've got the picture.
In some of the smaller companies, say for example 10 aircraft or less, the flight crew and management still do tend to work together for the common benefit of both. There is a mutual understanding for both to succeed. As companies grow larger however, the "us vs them" mentality creeps in, and the larger the company becomes, the larger the problem.
When I started with SIA years ago, they had only 14 aircraft, were a very small player in the worlds' market with great ambitions.
When I left 5 years later, they had grown to 29 aircraft and the contentious attitudes had started.
There is a definate benefit to remaining small in a niche market.
The CX guys have a very big problem. The Brits are no longer in charge in HKG and accountants now run the airline. Shareholder value is to be preserved by keeping expenses low (including pilot's salaries) and if management don't do so, they will be run over by the cement truck of cheaper competition.
If the CX pilots want much higher salaries, they will have to look elsewhere.
I notice that they still do not choose to reveal what their senior guys make now.
I wonder why? Could it be that they will be embarrassed?

[Wino]

Ahh 411, 20 or 30 aircraft and it got contentious? As I recall you are management. Could you have been the problem?

I can point to an airline with more than 350 aircraft that has fine labor relations. Take a gander at Southwest. That is what GOOD management can accomplish. By the way, only half way through their contract, managment is working on giving the pilots a raise to keep up with the rest of the industry (inspite of this alleged recession.).

Southwest is very heavily unionized, yet enjoys good labor relations.

Its all in the management.

Frontier just gave its pilots a mid contract raise as well (a rather hefty one I might add).

Are these company's "caving"? I think not, they are realizing the value of a happy work force, and they continue to make money as a result. The oportunities for waste in an airline business are staggering. If everyone isn't on board and smiling you just can't make money.

Management must make their employees happy, simply ruling with an iron fist has been repeatedly disproved in this industry.

Cheers
Wino

[Kaptin M]

In my opinion, the pilots are WAY AHEAD of the knee-jerk reactions exhibited by Turnbull, Tyler and co.
To date, the pilots have taken no action at all...they have followed CX's operating procedures to the letter - as the company would undoubtedly expect them to - making the scheduled times unrealistic. Previously, the company had relied on the pilots "goodwill" to get the aircraft out on sched, however, goodwill is supposed to be a 2-way street. And it hasn't been.

To date, the pilots have effectively done NOTHING at all - it is Cathay management who have been running around like a beheaded chicken - hiring outside aircraft and crews (regardless of cost) trying (unsuccessfully) to guess the pilots next move, which to date hasn't been anything!.....sacking pilots whom they want to believe were at the crux of the problem, when in fact it is the majority of the pilot group who have had it up to their back teeth!.....desperately attempting to win public support for their anti-worker, jackboot, Gestapo tactics, by flooding the media with press releases and offers of interviews which attempt to portray the pilots as overpaid, white devil elitists, whilst conveniently ignoring their own salaries and benefits packages which would EACH pay the salary of 7 pilots. But the truth is, Chinese RESPECT big salary earners, they understand and accept AUTHORITARIANISM and OPPRESSION, but they (secretly) yearn for FREEDOM from the regime that SUPPRESSES them - Tianamen Square massacre; Bruce Lee's "Fists of Fury"; CX pilots' struggle with tyrants Turnbull and Tyler!

Winston Churchill's "We have not yet begun to fight", would be a fairly appropriate quip in the CX pilots' current struggle to free themselves from the foreign oppressive management who show no recognition to their workers.

That Singapore is playing this to the fullest is no surprise, for they have the most to gain from the fallout of Cathay Pacific's pilots - historically, CX pilots have chosen SIA as the airline they will work for when their time with Cathay is over.