CX sack 49 via DHL; impose new contract
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
The 52 pilots sacked is equivalent to the number of crew required for 5 aircraft, working on 5 crew per aircraft, (which is pretty much the industry norm for long haul/regional ops.)
How co-incidental is it, that Turnbull, Tyler and Co., have wet-leased 10 aircraft??!
Expect another "purging" before long, to reconcile the cost and number of leased aircraft.
[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
How co-incidental is it, that Turnbull, Tyler and Co., have wet-leased 10 aircraft??!
Expect another "purging" before long, to reconcile the cost and number of leased aircraft.
[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: Kaptin M ]
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It's probably cheaper to charter from the Chinese carriers than flying CX's own aircraft. Well done Dave! You are doing a job in screwing the pilots. Keep up with the good work. And don't forget, do to others what you want them to do to you. 
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CX Pilots
Further to my post of yesterday, I do hope that you won’t mind me reiterating the need for a very effective HK PR outfit to make your case to the world.
It would seem that your “management” is intent on winning the PR war and, as someone looking in from the outside, Turnbull & Co seem to be way ahead on points, so far.
I hope that GK will not mind me pinching his posting of yesterday from another thread:
SCMP Monday (9 July 2001) Public Opinion Poll
Should Cathay Pacific's management agree to its pilots' demands?
Answer Result Per cent
1. Yes. Anything to avert flight chaos 57.2%
2. Should give way on pay, but not rosters 12.6%
3. Should give way on rosters, but not pay 13.4%
4. Not at all 16.8%
It would further seem that in respect of the HK General Public, you would be pushing against an open door with any future PR efforts, as the wish is clearly for normal service to be resumed ASAP.
I would have thought that a campaign to clearly demonstrate that it is not the pilots who are preventing such a return to normal service and indeed continue to operate in the most adverse of industrial climates, but rather the efforts of a puerile, vindictive, unprofessional, un-cooperative, inexperienced group of egomaniacs, masquerading as a professional management group, with zero concern for the shareholders’ interests and utter contempt for the employees, that is jamming up the works.
In the same vein, I assume that the Association does have access to expert legal advice; able to adroitly manoeuvre in the shallows of HK employment legislation and that the possibility is currently being explored of personal suits against the directors responsible for the vexatious, selective, damaging and illegal termination of 52 employment contracts?
Perhaps the Association requires to be more proactive and to take the psychological war to the opponent’s camp. Remember that when bullies are confronted, they piss their pants and run away – Ayling Bob, of a million years ago, when trying the same Rambo Management stunt received a particularly sweet come-uppance from the shareholders.
Best regards
Further to my post of yesterday, I do hope that you won’t mind me reiterating the need for a very effective HK PR outfit to make your case to the world.
It would seem that your “management” is intent on winning the PR war and, as someone looking in from the outside, Turnbull & Co seem to be way ahead on points, so far.
I hope that GK will not mind me pinching his posting of yesterday from another thread:
SCMP Monday (9 July 2001) Public Opinion Poll
Should Cathay Pacific's management agree to its pilots' demands?
Answer Result Per cent
1. Yes. Anything to avert flight chaos 57.2%
2. Should give way on pay, but not rosters 12.6%
3. Should give way on rosters, but not pay 13.4%
4. Not at all 16.8%
It would further seem that in respect of the HK General Public, you would be pushing against an open door with any future PR efforts, as the wish is clearly for normal service to be resumed ASAP.
I would have thought that a campaign to clearly demonstrate that it is not the pilots who are preventing such a return to normal service and indeed continue to operate in the most adverse of industrial climates, but rather the efforts of a puerile, vindictive, unprofessional, un-cooperative, inexperienced group of egomaniacs, masquerading as a professional management group, with zero concern for the shareholders’ interests and utter contempt for the employees, that is jamming up the works.
In the same vein, I assume that the Association does have access to expert legal advice; able to adroitly manoeuvre in the shallows of HK employment legislation and that the possibility is currently being explored of personal suits against the directors responsible for the vexatious, selective, damaging and illegal termination of 52 employment contracts?
Perhaps the Association requires to be more proactive and to take the psychological war to the opponent’s camp. Remember that when bullies are confronted, they piss their pants and run away – Ayling Bob, of a million years ago, when trying the same Rambo Management stunt received a particularly sweet come-uppance from the shareholders.
Best regards
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CX Pilots
Sorry I forgot to mention in the posting above - I'm told an injunction staying the individual terminations demonstrably made in contentious, heated and controversial circumstances, would be effective.
Best regards
Sorry I forgot to mention in the posting above - I'm told an injunction staying the individual terminations demonstrably made in contentious, heated and controversial circumstances, would be effective.
Best regards
DIRECTOR
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Tosh You are correct in saying the pilots should hire a PR firm as all the media as usual bring up the salaries earned by a few as representing the norm and thus depicting Cathay Pilots as a bunch of greedy types.
This report was printed gleefully in the Singapore Straits Times as if it could not happen here and of course they are right in that respect as our recent CA was thrust down our throats without any pretence of meaningful negotiation.
I hope this does not mean that SIA will now solve their recruitment problem yet again by someone elses misfortune!
This report was printed gleefully in the Singapore Straits Times as if it could not happen here and of course they are right in that respect as our recent CA was thrust down our throats without any pretence of meaningful negotiation.
I hope this does not mean that SIA will now solve their recruitment problem yet again by someone elses misfortune!
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For those that have not been in the industry for a long time, SIA has ALWAYS been able to solve their recruitment problems this way. It started many years ago with the guys that took early retirement from BA and is not likely to cease anytime soon. SIA has always been in the market for crews at "just" the right time.
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Yes it is likely to change soon. No more military pilots, no 'self-improvers' and all airlines expanding. Supply and Demand indicate that unless SIA change their thinking poste-haste they are in for difficult times.
SIA have not enough pilots and too many aircraft. Already seeing their monthly ads in Flight indicates the pressure may be on them even now.
-----------------------
With regard to the CX boys, I put this on the FH forum but it is more relevant here:...
Amongst various tactics the bullies at H/O will now be evaluating, the next stage I suggest will be a little "gift" in the
mail from CX.
This new deal will have further "improved" conditions and an expiry date.
All most of us outsiders can say is beware Airline Managers bearing gifts. You guys have previously been forced to sign
new contracts under duress and look what that resulted in.
As a casual observer all I would ever suggest is don't sign anything and keep doing what you are doing. Don't resign,
don't go on strike just do your job safely.
The intended intimidatory pressure they are applying to you with these sackings is further reason for you to be doubly
sure of safety when at work. If you miss a Notam or inadvertantly skip a cockpit item (gear pins removed?) then you are
easy pickings for them. Take your time and keep doing exactly what you have been doing so far.
Incidentally, all you are doing is what you are contracted to do - what more could any employer require. If this has
thrown Cathay into such chaos isn't that perfect proof of undermanning on their part.
Keep it up folks - may the force be with you.
SIA have not enough pilots and too many aircraft. Already seeing their monthly ads in Flight indicates the pressure may be on them even now.
-----------------------
With regard to the CX boys, I put this on the FH forum but it is more relevant here:...
Amongst various tactics the bullies at H/O will now be evaluating, the next stage I suggest will be a little "gift" in the
mail from CX.
This new deal will have further "improved" conditions and an expiry date.
All most of us outsiders can say is beware Airline Managers bearing gifts. You guys have previously been forced to sign
new contracts under duress and look what that resulted in.
As a casual observer all I would ever suggest is don't sign anything and keep doing what you are doing. Don't resign,
don't go on strike just do your job safely.
The intended intimidatory pressure they are applying to you with these sackings is further reason for you to be doubly
sure of safety when at work. If you miss a Notam or inadvertantly skip a cockpit item (gear pins removed?) then you are
easy pickings for them. Take your time and keep doing exactly what you have been doing so far.
Incidentally, all you are doing is what you are contracted to do - what more could any employer require. If this has
thrown Cathay into such chaos isn't that perfect proof of undermanning on their part.
Keep it up folks - may the force be with you.
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CX Pilots
An extract from the SCMP, Monday, July 9, 2001, as posted by Airbubba on this thread yesterday:
“Asked for examples of what pilots had done to warrant sacking, he said one had repeatedly verbally abused ground staff while another had called in sick on short notice five times in six months. The sacked pilots were 23 captains and 26 first officers”.
The management action involved in sacking a pilot who had “called in sick on short notice five times in six months” begs a number of questions.
1. Does the CX management not understand the important correlation between pilots’ individual judgement as to whether they are fit or not to fly and the particular employing airline’s cultural attitude towards Flight Safety?
2. Is the CX management made up of qualified medical practitioners who are able to make continuous judgement on the day-to-day medical fitness of all pilots employed by CX?
3. Is the CX management similarly able to differentiate particular maladies which may not induce severe operational debilitation with those maladies which, in particular vestibulary ailments, are capable of inducing the most sever threats to operational capability and hence to Flight Safety?
4. Is the CX management aware that intimidation that counters individual pilot judgement as to fitness or otherwise to fly is behaviour of the utmost recklessness and irresponsibility in its coercive and knowing commissioning of unsafe practices?
5. Is the CX management aware that under the HK Companies Act – as amended from the UK Companies Act of 1948 - that they are jointly and severally responsible for acts commissioned and that in the event of reckless and unfit behaviour, they are individually liable for their actions without limitation?
6. In the event of an accident directly attributable to flight crew medical unfitness would the shareholders continue to condone (if indeed they do) their management’s current actions?
7. Is the HK General Public aware of the extremely serious implications of this particular intimidatory action to their own safety when flying CX and that of their loved ones?
8. Has any individual member of the newly contracted management any previous experience of the airline industry, before taking the reigns of CX and if so was the previous appointment(s) executed with what might be judged as competence and success?
9. If no to the above, have any of them ever successfully run a whelk stall?
Stick together guys and win the PR and Legal battles required for your success!
Best regards
An extract from the SCMP, Monday, July 9, 2001, as posted by Airbubba on this thread yesterday:
“Asked for examples of what pilots had done to warrant sacking, he said one had repeatedly verbally abused ground staff while another had called in sick on short notice five times in six months. The sacked pilots were 23 captains and 26 first officers”.
The management action involved in sacking a pilot who had “called in sick on short notice five times in six months” begs a number of questions.
1. Does the CX management not understand the important correlation between pilots’ individual judgement as to whether they are fit or not to fly and the particular employing airline’s cultural attitude towards Flight Safety?
2. Is the CX management made up of qualified medical practitioners who are able to make continuous judgement on the day-to-day medical fitness of all pilots employed by CX?
3. Is the CX management similarly able to differentiate particular maladies which may not induce severe operational debilitation with those maladies which, in particular vestibulary ailments, are capable of inducing the most sever threats to operational capability and hence to Flight Safety?
4. Is the CX management aware that intimidation that counters individual pilot judgement as to fitness or otherwise to fly is behaviour of the utmost recklessness and irresponsibility in its coercive and knowing commissioning of unsafe practices?
5. Is the CX management aware that under the HK Companies Act – as amended from the UK Companies Act of 1948 - that they are jointly and severally responsible for acts commissioned and that in the event of reckless and unfit behaviour, they are individually liable for their actions without limitation?
6. In the event of an accident directly attributable to flight crew medical unfitness would the shareholders continue to condone (if indeed they do) their management’s current actions?
7. Is the HK General Public aware of the extremely serious implications of this particular intimidatory action to their own safety when flying CX and that of their loved ones?
8. Has any individual member of the newly contracted management any previous experience of the airline industry, before taking the reigns of CX and if so was the previous appointment(s) executed with what might be judged as competence and success?
9. If no to the above, have any of them ever successfully run a whelk stall?
Stick together guys and win the PR and Legal battles required for your success!
Best regards
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Agreed, Tom. Unfortunately (for the pilots at SQ), a long time local F/E at that airline commented to me many years ago, "SIA has always been blessed with Luck. Whenever they are short of pilots (for whatever the reason), another airline goes t!tsup, or retrenches their pilots. This time it looks as though Cathay will unwittingly provide the flight crew that Singapore are so desperate for, with the added attraction of basings outside Singapore, and a retirement age of 60 (and tipped to be raised). Although SQ has not remunerated as well as CX, it takes a lot of pressure off the Cathay pilots to know that their experience will be their visa to another employer, and a continued income.
Likewise, I won't be surprised to see other airlines accept a slight surplus of pilots and take on some of the retrenched ex-Cathay drivers, if only because they would be too good value to let slip away.
The downsizing of CX - which it appears Turnbull, Tyler and co., are forcing onto that company - will result in experienced pilots being released onto the market, and unfortunately for the self-improvers another period of lesser opportunities in the shorter term. However, as a lot of these CX gents are in the "upper age" bracket, the relief for employers will only be a brief respite, and the piece of elastic will not be capable of stretched any further.
Likewise, I won't be surprised to see other airlines accept a slight surplus of pilots and take on some of the retrenched ex-Cathay drivers, if only because they would be too good value to let slip away.
The downsizing of CX - which it appears Turnbull, Tyler and co., are forcing onto that company - will result in experienced pilots being released onto the market, and unfortunately for the self-improvers another period of lesser opportunities in the shorter term. However, as a lot of these CX gents are in the "upper age" bracket, the relief for employers will only be a brief respite, and the piece of elastic will not be capable of stretched any further.
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Tosh26
I notice that you refer to Mr Bob Ayling of BA, as a CEO dispatched by the shareholders for incompetent handling of staff relations and in particular pilot-management relations.
Another “whelk stall” operator I can think of, with no previous industry experience and who met a similar fate (to much rejoicing) for mishandling what seems to be the all important relationship with the pilots, is Mr Francis Baron, one time CEO of UK tour operator, First Choice.
Will Mr Turnbull and friends be next to meet nemisis at the shareholders' hands?
I notice that you refer to Mr Bob Ayling of BA, as a CEO dispatched by the shareholders for incompetent handling of staff relations and in particular pilot-management relations.
Another “whelk stall” operator I can think of, with no previous industry experience and who met a similar fate (to much rejoicing) for mishandling what seems to be the all important relationship with the pilots, is Mr Francis Baron, one time CEO of UK tour operator, First Choice.
Will Mr Turnbull and friends be next to meet nemisis at the shareholders' hands?
The Reverend
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As the dispute between Cathay Pacific and its pilots escalates, analysts say the battle could cost the airline significantly more than the last time its aviators disrupted business in 1999.
Cathay chartered an additional seven aircraft and crews yesterday from mainland airlines in preparation for a possible full-scale work stoppage by its pilots.
"Those new aircraft would indicate that the airline is interested in playing serious hard ball. At this stage, it certainly seems that Cathay is interested in getting to a final resolution as quickly as possible, even if that means pushing the pilots into a strike," said an aviation analyst who declined to be named.
The seven aircraft acquired yesterday were in addition to the 10 wet-leased aircraft and crew Cathay took on last week ahead of Typhoon Utor.
Analysts estimated that the 17 aircraft charters could be costing the airline more than HK$10 million a day, add to that the cost of re-routing and housing passengers from cancelled flights each day.
Cathay said its average flight carried about 300 passengers and it was cancelling flights at the rate of about 300 to 350 a week.
While the two-week work stoppage in 1999 cost Cathay about HK$500 million, it also won back HK$1.4 billion in reduced wage costs in the 1999 contract, in exchange for giving pilots share options in the airline.
Those savings were supposed to be spread over 10 years, but analysts estimate that the savings were in fact front-end loaded.
"I'd say that Cathay has about 40 per cent of those savings under their belt already," said the analyst.
But this time around, rather than being in a position to slash costs, Cathay will be obligated to increase its payroll to satisfy the pilots. It has offered them a pay increase of up to 9 per cent.
Assuming that average pilot wages go up 5 per cent, each individual pilot will make an increase of about HK$44,000 in salary for the next six months.
That would increase Cathay's total staffing budget by about HK$65 million to HK$70 million per year. Last year, about a third of the airline's HK$7.5 billion in staffing costs were paid to pilots.
Cathay chartered an additional seven aircraft and crews yesterday from mainland airlines in preparation for a possible full-scale work stoppage by its pilots.
"Those new aircraft would indicate that the airline is interested in playing serious hard ball. At this stage, it certainly seems that Cathay is interested in getting to a final resolution as quickly as possible, even if that means pushing the pilots into a strike," said an aviation analyst who declined to be named.
The seven aircraft acquired yesterday were in addition to the 10 wet-leased aircraft and crew Cathay took on last week ahead of Typhoon Utor.
Analysts estimated that the 17 aircraft charters could be costing the airline more than HK$10 million a day, add to that the cost of re-routing and housing passengers from cancelled flights each day.
Cathay said its average flight carried about 300 passengers and it was cancelling flights at the rate of about 300 to 350 a week.
While the two-week work stoppage in 1999 cost Cathay about HK$500 million, it also won back HK$1.4 billion in reduced wage costs in the 1999 contract, in exchange for giving pilots share options in the airline.
Those savings were supposed to be spread over 10 years, but analysts estimate that the savings were in fact front-end loaded.
"I'd say that Cathay has about 40 per cent of those savings under their belt already," said the analyst.
But this time around, rather than being in a position to slash costs, Cathay will be obligated to increase its payroll to satisfy the pilots. It has offered them a pay increase of up to 9 per cent.
Assuming that average pilot wages go up 5 per cent, each individual pilot will make an increase of about HK$44,000 in salary for the next six months.
That would increase Cathay's total staffing budget by about HK$65 million to HK$70 million per year. Last year, about a third of the airline's HK$7.5 billion in staffing costs were paid to pilots.
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HotDog
Re: your quote of 10.07.01
"Those new aircraft would indicate that the airline is interested in playing serious hard ball. At this stage, it certainly seems that Cathay is interested in getting to a final resolution as quickly as possible, even if that means pushing the pilots into a strike," said an aviation analyst who declined to be named”.
I would think that if the Cathay pilots do not take any precipitate action that could possibly be construed as contravention of HK law and continue to fulfil their contractual obligations to the letter by turning up for work unless medically unfit, then they will be “fire proof” and no “final resolution as quickly as possible” can be attained by management.
Meanwhile the management will continue to bleed the company to death, presumably eventually prompting an intervention by the airline’s major shareholders?
Re: your quote of 10.07.01
"Those new aircraft would indicate that the airline is interested in playing serious hard ball. At this stage, it certainly seems that Cathay is interested in getting to a final resolution as quickly as possible, even if that means pushing the pilots into a strike," said an aviation analyst who declined to be named”.
I would think that if the Cathay pilots do not take any precipitate action that could possibly be construed as contravention of HK law and continue to fulfil their contractual obligations to the letter by turning up for work unless medically unfit, then they will be “fire proof” and no “final resolution as quickly as possible” can be attained by management.
Meanwhile the management will continue to bleed the company to death, presumably eventually prompting an intervention by the airline’s major shareholders?
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Theres a rumour making the rounds that the two aircraft currently in the desert (Classics) will be recovered and flown by ASL freighter crews to help fill the gaps in the CX ranks. Interesting moral dilemma for some....
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Raitfaiter,
Matters are serious enough without pouring petrol on flames.
I cannot see how ASL will get involved. Moral dilemma aside, there just aren't the numbers. ASL has only 14 Captains and 11 FO's presently qualified to fly the CX Classic. Equally, my understanding is that only one of the mothballed Classics could be made airworthy. Even then it was considered last year and rejected on the grounds of cost.
Moreover, CX showed in 99 it was best to keep the freighters moving to generate cash to pay for the charters.
Stay calm.
Liam G.
Matters are serious enough without pouring petrol on flames.
I cannot see how ASL will get involved. Moral dilemma aside, there just aren't the numbers. ASL has only 14 Captains and 11 FO's presently qualified to fly the CX Classic. Equally, my understanding is that only one of the mothballed Classics could be made airworthy. Even then it was considered last year and rejected on the grounds of cost.
Moreover, CX showed in 99 it was best to keep the freighters moving to generate cash to pay for the charters.
Stay calm.
Liam G.
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lets face it guys,CX was and is still one of the best paid outfits,as far as pilots are concerned,,why rock the boat so much.
Consider the austrlian sackings,chinese control of hongkong,etc.
There is no room for mass strikes etc in these or any business in the new millenium.
Everyone is dispensible.Happens every day.
Be aware !!!!
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Yeah right delta...tell that to the Lufthansa pilots!!!
----------------------------------
Anyway, sitting here as an outsider in Oz one thing strikes me clearly:
It is a fact (though not politically correct) that passengers pay more to fly CX because they believe they have a distinctly higher chance of survival. When you look at the competition (Korean, China Airlines, Singapore Airlines) their accident/incident rates are shameful and the public know that.
Pax on CX know all this and it is a substantial part of the reason CX was so profitable recently. It is often said employees "bight the hand that feeds them" but in the CX case may I suggest it is the pilots and the reputation they have bought the airline, which is in fact directly feeding the managers. These CEO's etc are now literally bighting the hand that is feeding them.
Attempted destruction of that pilot group is 1) An excercise in futility as the much quoted Boeing Aircraft survey which indicates a critical Aircrew supply shortage will dictate that they will do as well or better elsewhere - in the medium term.
2) A recipe for destroying the very factor that makes the airline so popular.
----------------------
So although your management seem to have Stallone Syndrome (Ready to Fight but not real smart) I can't believe they would be stupid enough to let you guys disappear.
To do so by say systematically sacking 40 guys every 2-3 days would destroy their own livelyhoods. CX is a 'world class' carrier in no small part because of your contributions.
The airline may threaten to employ say hungry Romanians and good luck to them, but such is the media interset the airline reputation will suffer and along with it that reputation which these guys want for their future careers (like Eddington).
----------------------------------
Anyway, sitting here as an outsider in Oz one thing strikes me clearly:
It is a fact (though not politically correct) that passengers pay more to fly CX because they believe they have a distinctly higher chance of survival. When you look at the competition (Korean, China Airlines, Singapore Airlines) their accident/incident rates are shameful and the public know that.
Pax on CX know all this and it is a substantial part of the reason CX was so profitable recently. It is often said employees "bight the hand that feeds them" but in the CX case may I suggest it is the pilots and the reputation they have bought the airline, which is in fact directly feeding the managers. These CEO's etc are now literally bighting the hand that is feeding them.
Attempted destruction of that pilot group is 1) An excercise in futility as the much quoted Boeing Aircraft survey which indicates a critical Aircrew supply shortage will dictate that they will do as well or better elsewhere - in the medium term.
2) A recipe for destroying the very factor that makes the airline so popular.
----------------------
So although your management seem to have Stallone Syndrome (Ready to Fight but not real smart) I can't believe they would be stupid enough to let you guys disappear.
To do so by say systematically sacking 40 guys every 2-3 days would destroy their own livelyhoods. CX is a 'world class' carrier in no small part because of your contributions.
The airline may threaten to employ say hungry Romanians and good luck to them, but such is the media interset the airline reputation will suffer and along with it that reputation which these guys want for their future careers (like Eddington).
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You guys in CX better watch yourselves now. Don't think there's any shortage of guys over here in the likes of Ryan and Easy, or Go, who aren't just wetting themselves at the thought of fast tracking to a heavy left seat!
After all, fairs fair, you Ozzies ruined our careers in '89 when you flooded the world market with losers. This time it'll be different 'cos we won't be 'nice guys' again, and get shafted like before.
This time we're going to HK.
After all, fairs fair, you Ozzies ruined our careers in '89 when you flooded the world market with losers. This time it'll be different 'cos we won't be 'nice guys' again, and get shafted like before.
This time we're going to HK.