FTL + the italian "smart" way: a safety threat?

[constant napper]

At present time Italian FTL (which they claim to be the easa ones) have no duty time limits for a 24 hours period, but just a (ridiculous) 60 hours in 7 consecutive days limit, therefore most Italian charter airlines routinely roster their crews to fly a long haul flight and then immediately position back to Italy, resulting sometimes in duty times exceeding 26 hours (e.g. rome-milan-cuba dead head to Italy and may be even a couple of hours of dead heading by car on top of this).
After such a duty the minimum rest is 26 hours and then you can be assigned a similar duty again. According to the (sad) experience of many crews 48 hours of rest wouldn’t be enough to recover from such a duty, let’s figure how physically fit can a pilot be after just 26 hours of rest.

Add to this the RUMOUR that many crews can only avail of the cockpit jumpseat as their rest facility, as some airline often sell out to passengers the seats which should be reserved for this purpose, the routine use of the “unforeseen circumstances” extension and the possibility to reduce the rest period to only 10 hours when outstation, and you get a clear picture of how fit are some pilots flying widebodies across the Atlantic nowadays.

Long time ago has disappeared any hope that Italian unions or aviation authority could care and take some action about this very serious safety threat, but what about the aviation authorities and the unions of nearby countries and countries to which these airlines fly to? (And the countries over flown?)
Isn’t this a competition threat for other airlines flying similar routes with higher costs due to wiser and safer use of crews? Don’t they care?
Isn’t this a threat to the working conditions of all pilots flying similar routes? Don’t they care?
Do you know of any other airline in the civilized world using such kind of roster practices?

Rgds

[BOAC]

Has there ever been a limit on 'duty' in 24 hours anywhere in Europe?

[wilyflier]

Duty time in Europe

I seem to remember 24 hrs inthe early 60s,Bua3pilots,
Switzerland 24 hrs 2 pilots?

[icemanalgeria]

My recent duty was.
Pax Jordan to IST LIS SMA 6 hours sleep followed by SMA PAP (5 hours loading) CSS dh SMA Jordan total duty 36 hours.

I have been in bed 18 hours first day back, and 12 hours second day back.


I have used crew rest seats in Italy too, with one company they were Y seats infront of a bulkhead that would not recline and 29" pitch.

Or Cabin crew jump seat at L1.

[boardingpass]

Try getting an Italian to be a witness for anything. Basically, if you open your mouth you're out. Same goes for complaining at work or 'causing a fuss'.

[tflier]

North East Ouest South......there in lie many a story about FTL'S!

[CaptSeeAreEmm]

There is nothing smart about this. Why would they burn off the crew duty time on dead heading back, presumably they need to get the planes back too, eventually. Who are flying the return flight, and where did they come from? Are they dead heading crew over too?

And if they actually do this there would be no reason to do it with minimum rest in-between, as you spend 52 hours on two trips leaving 8 hours for the 7 day period.

[EAM]

giro macchina, how we call this, is usualy paid very well. Some years ago the flight hours back were paid as flight hours on duty, in addition to that any hour above 19h duty was paid as well. A simple 36h duty to japan with a positioning back could bring you around 1000€, sleeping 10h in business class, maybe thats the reason why this company went bust.

[captplaystation]

Blue Paranoia always were and always will be a bunch of cowboys, I see nothing changed. Hope Neos are not doing the same, hate to see those lovely ladies look washed out at breakfast or by the pool

[eez]

The maximum duty hours for flight crew, excepting helicopters, shall not exceed:
55 hours in any 7 consecutive days, but may be increased to 60 hours, when a
rostered duty covering a series of duty periods, once commenced, is subject to

unforeseen delays;

This is from CAP 371 (UK CAA)
It seems more or less the same as the Italian regulation.....

[Groundloop]

This is from CAP 371 (UK CAA)
It seems more or less the same as the Italian regulation.....

Except that CAP371 limits an individual flying duty period to between 13 and 9 hours depending on report time, no of sectors etc. which does not seem to be the same in Italy.

[eez]

We are talking about duty period, which is different from flight duty period(FDP).
In Italy the maximum basic daily FDP is 13 hrs and it must be reduced by 30 minutes for each sector from the third sector onwards with a maximum total reduction of two hrs. When the FDP starts in the WOCL there are other reductions...

[RadAlt]

So at first glance it does appear to be the same FTL as EASA's, so any airlinei n Europe using these FTL can do the same practise. The required rest-period after such duty will have to be the same as the amount spend on duty.
Not just in Italy.

[eez]

According to the Italian regulation:
the minimum rest which must be provided before undertaking a Flight duty period starting at home base shall be at least as long as the preceding DUTY PERIOD or 12 hrs whichever is the greater.

According to CAP 371:

17.2 The minimum rest period which must be provided before undertaking a flying duty period shall be:
a) at least as long as the preceding duty period, or

b) 12 hours

It seems the same.......

[Mr Angry from Purley]

There is no DUTY time limit in CAP371 either. What constant is saying is that after a long ETOPS flight the crews deadhead back to Italy presumably to save Hotac etc. It's been here before it's more of a duty of care situation than a legality issue as you could do Heathrow - Luton FDP then pax to Australia and back as long as it didnt hit the 55hrs in a week etc.

I can't see such Airlines adopting any Fatigue Risk stratergy either

[Daniel_11000]

Thanks to Posts #14 & #15, it appears that Post #6 is just the usual un-informed opinion (and slightly insulting, can we say ?) on Italy/Italians , and should not belong to a Professional Forum

[captplaystation]

If you worked in the company I suspect is concerned here, you would know that the sentiments expressed in Post 6 are valid.
Do you want me to list publically the violations I saw perpetrated by local pilots to keep their managers off their backs ? violations which any sane contractor told them to stuff where the sun don't shine.
Get real, or at least get informed.

[Daniel_11000]

Anybody in this forum can list violations perpetrated by any other company, you can list whatever you want, as, as you perfectly know, nobody knows who you rellay are. Many Pruners in the past have "whistle- blowed", on the violations they knew, this does not means that there is no applicable and enforced regulation in Italy concerning FTL.

[captplaystation]

In my experience of working in Italy, the only thing ENAC enforced or gave some oversight to was their own coffee breaks.
May have changed in the last 9yrs of course, but, somehow I doubt it.
Perhaps someone actually working (and not in management) for the company concerned can tell us, safe behind the cloak of anonymity is best in Berloland No ? then we will know.

[Daniel_11000]

Capplaystation, anonimity is used /abused everywhere, Sarkoland included, but unfortunately you are born with excessive dose of sciovinism in your blood , and as consequence you are prevented to understand that not all ‘rumors ’ are reality, excluding obviously your direct experience, which however , looking at your nice jokes on coffee-breaks, was surely not in the management position . Let us see if somebody else, with you same lion’s courage , will list other violations, in Italy, France , or whenever you like.
Over and out.